Charmed by the Devil (2025) Movie Script
1
[dramaticmusic]
-Thisis50years
ofcollectingmurderabilia,
memorabilia...
stuffhavingtodowith
theSteelman/Gretzlercase.
Asareporter,
Iwrotealotaboutcrime.
-Iknewmyaunt
wasinterviewingsomebody
whohadkilledsomeone.
-17deaths.
Somesayit'soneoftheworst
crimespreesinhistory.
-Bythetime
theygotcaught,
theyhadkilled17people
in20days.
-Iwantedtounderstand
themonster.
Whatpushedhimover
theedgetodoit?
Howcouldsomeoneput
twobulletsintothebrains
oftwochildren?
Can'tgetmuchcolder
thanthat.
Istartedtoreadabouthim.
Igothooked.
Isawit
asapsychologicalwhodunit.
Ihaveeverypolicereport,
victim'sphoto,
courtexhibits.
Thisisnowhowold?
27yearsold?
It'sverynicehair,actually.
-Therealconcernisknowing
herobsessivepersonality
andwherethat
couldultimatelylead.
Ididn'tfullyknow
thescopeofthis
untilshecalledmeup
andsaid,hey,Ithink
thatthere'sastory
tobetoldhere
aboutmyconnection
toDouglasGretzler.
Decadeslater,tofindout
thattheworstkiller,
whoseeminglyspoketonoone
fortenyearsondeathrow,
wasactuallyprolifically
talkingtoasingleperson
theentiretime...
anditjustsohappens
thatpersonismyaunt.
-WhenImetDouglasGretzler,
Ididn'tknow
whatIwasinfor.
IwentandvisitedDoug
350timesinprison.
Wewrotehundredsofletters,
andwerecorded500-plushours
ofaudiotapes.
Iwouldfillupthebathtub,
andIwouldlistentohimtalk
tomeaboutmurder.
Iwasobsessedwiththestory.
Absolutelynobodyhasheard
thesetapesexceptme...
untilnow.
-Itwas
agruesomemurderspree.
-October1973...
twomengoonaroadtrip
thatturnsdeadly.
Theyrob,steal,
andmurderalongtheway--
marriedcouples,
parents,children.
Itbeganwhenthepairkidnap
andmurdertwomen.
-MikeAdshadeandKenUnrein.
Theythenmurderedtheir
thirdvictim,SteveLoughran.
BobRobbinsbecame
thefourthvictim.
-Awomaniskidnapped
andmurdered.
-Yahfah,KatherineMestites.
-GilbertSierra.
-Patricia
andMichaelSandberg.
-November4th
thepairtravelstoCalifornia,
wheretheykilledninepeople.
-Itwaslikesomething
outofanovel.
Awealthybusinessman,
hisfamily,hisfriends,
allmass-murdered
incoldblood.
-Thiswasthebiggest
mass-murderspreein1973.
Butasquickly
asthemurdersunfolded,
theywerecompletelyforgotten.
MynameisLauraGreenberg,
andIamawriter,
andI'vebeenawriter
forabout35years...
mostlyreporting.
IgrewupinLaurelton,Queens.
Ifoundajournal--
Iwas13--
thatsaid,whenIgrowup,
Ieitherwanttobe
apsychiatristorawriter.
Towardstheendof1976,
whenIwas21,
myfamilymovedtoTucson.
Afriendofminesaid,
hey,Iknowpeople
startingamagazine,
anditwascalled
"CityMagazine."
AndsoIcalledthemup
andsaid,hi,I'mLaura.
AndIsaid,Ineedajob.
Twodayslater,DickVonier
showedupatmyapartment.
Hewasaseasonednewspaperman.
Hehadinkinhisveins.
AndIsmiledalot,
fedhimalotofcoffee,
andthenextdayhecalledme,
andhesaid,you'rehired.
Ididn'tknowanything
aboutwriting,
exceptIwasyoungandhungry.
Dickwasanadult.
Hewas17yearsolderthanme.
AndIstartedarelationship
withDick.
Iwasverybusytrying
tosortofclimbtheladder,
writingaboutplacestoeat,
whatrockgroupswerecoming.
Butprettyquickly
Istartedwormingmyway
intothecrimeworld
andendedupbeing
prettygoodatit.
-Myaunt,shetaggedalong
withthecrimeunit
tocrimescenes.
Shebroughtbakedgoodsthat
shewouldmakeinherkitchen
toformrelationships
withlocalcops.
-Ididthatbecausethen
theystartedtoseeme
notjustasa"reporter,"
becausetheydon'tlike
reportersingeneral,
buttheystartedtoseeme
asahumanbeing.
Youalwaysgottotry
tofindtheedge.
In1986,
Igotatiponastory
abouttwomassmurderers
onArizona'sdeathrow.
Iwantedtowrite
aboutsomething
thatnoone
hadeverwrittenaboutbefore,
andnobodyreallyevenknew
whothehellwereDougGretzler
andWillieSteelman.
WillieSteelmandied
ofliverfailurein1986,
butIknew
thathiscrimepartner,
DouglasGretzler,
wasstillalive.
SoIwroteDoug,andIsaid,
wouldyoubewilling
totalktome?
Iwantedtoknow,howcould
amankill17people?
Hesaid,onlyifyou'rewilling
tocomehere
soIcanlayeyesonyou.
-[knocksondoor]
Hey!
-Hey.
-[chuckles]
How'sitgoing?
Goodtoseeyou.
Throughoutmychildhood,
everyoneusedtotalk
aboutmyaunt
havingthisweirdconnection
toaguynamedGretzler.
-Thisismyworkspace.
Iworkonthebed.
-Whatisallofthis?
-Soallofthis
ismany,manyyears
ofstuffhavingtodowith
thekillerDouglasGretzler.
-Thisstoryhasdominated
myaunt'slife.
Youknow,she'sobsessed.
-It'severyfile
intheworld,okay?
Allofthecourtcases,
notes,interviews.
-Yourentirehome
hasturnedintoamuseum...
-Yeah.
-Toaguy
thatmurdered17people.
Howdoesthathappen?
-Butmylifehasalwaysbeen
aboutextremes.
Tome,thisisverymuch
anAmericanstory.
AndIusedhim,inasense,
asatourguide
toaworldofviolence.
ThefirsttimeIwenttogo
visitDouglasGretzler,
Iwassonervous,
Iwentthrough
probablyaboutfour
orfiveXanax.
AndwhenIgotupthere,
Iwasstanding
inthevisitingroom.
Hesatdown,andIsaid,
hey,I'mLaura.
Ididn'tknow
whatIwasinfor.
Hewasstaringatme
intotalsilence.
Andthenheapologized,
becausehe'dneverreallyhad
avisitorbefore.
Thisissomeone
who'sbeenondeathrownow
15years.
Hedidn'ttrustanybody.
Gretzlerhadnevergiven
aninterviewtoanyreporter.
Hetoldme
thatmyletterintriguedhim.
Dougwassonervous.
Iwentoutofmyway
tomakehimfeelrelaxed.
IfoundoutDougandIhad
alotincommon.
WewerebothfromNewYork.
Weweresarcastic
witheachother.
Wewouldtalkaboutmusic.
Wehadthiscultureincommon,
andwebothwereobsessed
withthehumanmind.
-Istheresomething
thatsparked
yourinitialconnection
beyondjustreporting?
-Hewasscarysmart,
soIhadto,like,reallyuse
mybrain.
Icouldn'tjustphoneitin.
-Ithinkmyaunt
hasalwaysbeenseeking
somebodytochallengeher--
emotionally,intellectually.
Andit'shard
towrapmyheadaround,
becausetome...
[chuckles]
Ifsomebodytellsyou
theymurdered17people,
that'sahardswipeleft.
[chuckles]
-AndIjustrealized
prettyfast,
thisisareallydifferentkind
ofstory.
Ireallywantedtofindout
whyhedidthesethings.
AftermeetingDoug,hesaid,
wouldyoubewilling
torecordaudiotapes
andsendthemtome?
SoIwouldsendhiminone,
hewouldlisten,
andthenhewouldrespond.
Theseare
allmyGretzlertapes.
-Sohowmanytapes?
-Well,Gretzler
wouldbe500hours.
And...
absolutelynobodyhasheard
thesetapesexceptme...
untilnow.
-Idon'tthinkanything
affectedDouganymore.
Youkillone,youkilltwo,
youkillten.
-Hesaid...
I'venevertoldanybody
aboutthesethingsbefore.
Isaid,tellmemore.
-Herlifehasbeenconsumed
bythisstory.
-Isaid,whatthe(BLEEP)
iswrongwithyou?
-Iblurlinesinevery
relationshipI'veeverhad.
DougandIintroduced
thisotherstarringcharacter,
andthatwasataperecorder.
Westartedsendingtapes
backandforth.
Wejustsortoftalked
aboutsex,love,anddrugs.
Wechitchatted
abouteverything.
[tensemusic]
-Aretheretapeselsewhere?
-Yeah.
Oh,ironically,look.
-Oh,it'sme!
-[laughs]Iswear--
-It'smeandmysister
inapile
ofserial-killeraudiotapes.
[laughter]
-Asareporter,
Ihadtofigureoutaway
togethimtoopenuptome.
Afteraboutadozentapes,
hestartedtoopenup
alittlebitmore,
butitwasgradual.
Intheverybeginning,
wetalked
aboutourupbringings,
andIlearned
allabouttheGretzlerfamily.
[dramaticmusic]
-Dougwasatypicalboy.
Hewasalwayssupercreative,
andhepainted,
andheplayedmusic,
andhewasalwaysmakingstuff.
Heputalittlemotor
onthebackofhisbicycle.
[laughs]
Like,whodoesthat?
Hewasmechanicallyinclined,
andmydadvaluedacademics,
andthatwasn'tDoug.
Dougwasmorecreative.
-Therewassomething
behindthescenes
inthisverywell-to-dofamily
thatdidn'tquitemeettheeye.
Doug'sbrotherMark--hewas
theappleofhisfather'seye.
IthinkDougwaseverything
hedidn'twantinason.
-Markwastheacademic.
Oneday
hebrokeintotheschool
andstoletheanswers
totheRegentsExam.
Helostalltheprivileges
forhissenioryear,
andI'msure--
Poof!
[voicebreaking]I'msure
itwasreallyhardonhim.
[breathesdeeply]
-TheGretzlerfamily
wasgoingtohave
afamilymeeting
onhowtohelpMark.
-FathersaystoDoug,goon
upstairsandgetyourbrother.
SoDougrunsupthestairs
andopensthedoor
andseeshisbrother
withblood
allthewayaroundhishead.
Markhadshothimself.
-Inreading
thepsychologicalreports
bythepsychologist
whoevaluatedDoug,
hehadareallytraumatic
upbringing--
andparticularlythisbrother
killinghimself.
Youaddtothat
whatsoundslikeaveryharsh
andunlovingfather.
-Nooneevertalked
abouthisbrother'sdeath
withinthefamily.
Itjustsortof,like--
thedoorwasclosed.
-Hewasstruggling,
clearlyhad
terriblylowself-esteem,
andthenhehas
thisterribleloss--
allofthismakinghim
susceptible
tolookingforsomebody
whowouldbelikeafather
orwhowouldbelikeabrother.
-Ididn'tknowitatthetime,
butmybrotherwasdoingdrugs.
-Healreadyhadevidence
ofhisowntype
ofpsychiatricdisorder,
psychoticdisorder.
Sohejuststarted
toself-treat
hismental-healthproblems
withallthesedrugs.
-Theseareallfeatures
ofearlysignsofantisocial
personalitydisorder.
Youputanoverlay
ontopofthat
ofheavysubstanceabuse,
thisisnotagoodsetup
intermsofsomebody
whowillbesafe
tobeoutinsociety.
-Dougfinishedhighschool
in1969
andwenttoFlorida.
[birdschirping]
-Oh,man.
Sothisis
Judy's19thbirthday.
Andthisis
ourTuckahoekitchen.
-Thetwostarted
hangingout,havingfun.
Andthenshesaid
toDougonenight,
Ihavesomethingtotellyou.
-Soheknockedherup.
Hegotmarried,
andhecamebacktoNewYork.
AndIrememberhimwalkingup
throughthebackyard
withhisbabyinhisarms.
Myfatherhelpedthemget
anapartmentintheBronx.
-Aftertwoyears,theywanted
tohaveanotherbaby.
SoJudygetspregnant,
andDougwasveryexcited.
ButJudyandDougstarted
tohavesomeproblems,
andwithinaveryshortperiod
oftime,
shehasanabortion.
-Whentheabortionhappened,
Dougfeltthetrust
betweenhimandJudy
wasbetrayed.
Andthisiswhere
everythingchanged.
OnDecember26,1972,
Dougabandonedhisfamily
andheadedwest.
Isaid,Doug,
youhaveawifeandachild
thatyouadore.
JesusChrist,howcouldyou?
-Itmaybe
thatitwasupsetting
thatthiswoman
abortedhisbaby.
Atthesametime,
helefthiswifeanddaughter
withnomeansofsupport
andjustabandonedthem.
Abandonment
isaterribleabuse.
-Hehadmetafriend,
andsohedecidedhewasgonna
govisithiminDenver.
Hisfriendtookhimover
tothisguy'shouse.
Itwaslikeacrashpad.
Ithadalotofpeople
comingandgoing,
alotofdrugs,
alotofalcohol.
DougwasinDenver
acoupleofweeks
beforehemetaman
thatwouldchange
hislifeforever...
WillieLutherSteelman.
Therewassomething
aboutWillie
thatDougwasdrawnto.
-Doughasthisterribleloss,
makinghimsusceptible
tolookingforsomebody
whowouldbelikeabrother,
andWilliefulfilledthat.
-Hehadapowertohim.
Thatwastheway
Dougdescribedittome.
WilliewouldsortoftellDoug
whattodo,
andDoug
wouldjuststartfollowing.
WillieSteelman
hadahardlife.
HewasfromLodi,California.
-Mr.Steelman
hadbeeninstitutionalized
forveryserious
psychoticproblems.
[indistinctchatter]
-OnenightinDenver,
they'regettinghigher
andhigher,
andWillieissaying,
man,weneedsomemoney.
That'swhentheymadeThePact.
-ThePactentailed...
DougfollowinganythingWillie
toldhimtodo.
-Themostfatalwords
inthisentirethingwas,
willyoubackmyplay?
AndforDoug,thatwas
likesigninghislifeaway.
-ThePact
waslikealovepact.
ItseemsasthoughDoug
wassusceptibletoWillie
asastand-inforhisbrother.
-DougandWillie
wereseparatehumanbeings.
Aftertheymet,
thissymbioticrelationship
formedathirdpersonality.
Whenyouputthemtogether,
theyturnintosomething
thatisextremelydangerous.
-Theyjustsaid,
hey,let'sdoaroadtrip.
ItwasthemiddleofOctober.
Theypiledintothecar
insearchofmoredrugs,
andthatroadtrip
ledtoamurderspree.
-Therewassomethingabout
beingcontrolledbyWillie
thatwasappealingtoDoug.
Andthatheactually
didn'thaveaproblem
withwhatWilliesaid,because
hisdesiretobewithWillie
overrodeanythingWillie
couldhavetoldhimtodo.
-Thewayhetermedittome
is,Laura,Iwasdrowning,
andWillieSteelman
wasmybuoy.
Junkiesjustalwaysare
onthemove,
andWilliesays,
we'regonnagodowntoPhoenix.
It'swarmer.
-Marshawasjust
acutelittlehippiegirl.
Theygettogether,
andtheystartdriving.
Marshareallywantedtogosee
herfriendYahfah.
ShelivedinPhoenix.
-KenledWillie
andMarshaandDoug
tothelittletrailer
outinApacheJunction,
wheretheyfinallywoundup
seeingYahfah
andherboyfriendBobRobbins.
AftervisitingwithYahfah,
KenandMike
tookWillieandDoug
backtothehotelintown.
AndnowWillieandDoug,
theywerejustgettinghigh.
-Itbecameabuffet
ofhallucinogenics,weed,hash,
heroin,speed,chickencrank.
-WhydidGretzlerandSteelman
wanttorobKenandMike,
andwhatdidthey
getoutofit?
-Williewantedmoney
andwheels.
Thiswastheshiftinwhatwas
kindofahippie-dippie
druggyspree.
Thisiswhenitallchanged.
SoKenandMikewerekidnapped
byWillieandDougatgunpoint.
Therewasnoplan.
Imean,itwasinsane.
-Theyparkedthevan,
andWillieandDoug
walkedKenandMike
downintothislittleravine,
tiedthemup,andWillie
andDougwalkedback.
AndWillietapsDoug
ontheshoulderandsays,
wecan'tleaveanywitnesses.
-WilliesaidtoDoug,
youtakeMike,I'lltakeKen.
Ibelievethatthatwas
Willie'stest
tosee,howfarwouldDouggo
forhim?
Thiswouldbe
thedangerousthreshold
fromwhich
theycouldn'treturn.
[dramaticmusic]
-Iwaslike,howcouldyou?
Andhesaid,
becauseWillietoldmeto.
-WhatdidGretzlertellyou
aboutKenandMike?
-Theydidn'thavetodie.
-Heobviouslyexplained
toyou
somereallygraphicdetails
ofthecrimes.
Canyoudescribehowyou
ultimatelyfeltaboutit?
-Right,ashe'syanking
andhe'stakinghisknee
andpushinghimdown
ontotheground,
andmeanwhileWillie
issortofscreaming,
you'renotdoingthisright.
-Tohearthatlevelof...
visceraldetail
isgross.
-Atthatpoint,I'mdisgusted,
butI'mnotfeeling.
Ihadtoremove
sortofthis
judgmentalfeelingstate
inorderforme
tokeepfindingoutmore.
Isaid,this
boughtyounothing.
ThemurdersofMikeAdshade
andKenUnrein
arethemostimportant,
becausetheysetthem
ontheroadtoirreversible.
AndforDoug,
itwasoneorahundred.
Itdidn'tmatter.
OnceDougwaswilling
tostrangletodeath
MikeAdshade,
hewasnolongerDoug.
Hewastheproperty
ofWillieSteelman.
-Dougbelievedtherewas
superintimacybetweenthem.
Itwaslikealovepact.
There'saconsummation
indoingthesekinds
ofcrimestogether.
-Hestartedtoopenupmore,
andIrealized
thatneitheroneofus
everfitinanywhere.
Thatwasourglue.
-Howdidyougethim
toopenup?
-Well,Iasked.
-Whenareallysmart,pushy
journalistwithnofilter
befriendedhim,
itwastheperfectcombination
forhimtofindachannel
thathewascomfortable
toopenupto.
-Apersonwithantisocial
personalitydisorder
needstofeelspecial.
Manipulationislike
yourwayoflife.
AndIhavenottreatedLaura,
butclearlyLaurawasreadyto
bemanipulated.
-Afterayearandahalf
ofsendingtapesandletters
andhavingphonecalls,
Iwantedsomeprivacy,
andsodidhe.
Andweweregranted
contactvisits.
Inordertogetthosevisits,
Ihadtocomeuponceamonth
forayear.
Contactvisitwasdifferent
thanmeetingbehindglass.
Yougointoasmallroom
withatableandtwochairs.
-Whoproposedtheidea
ofcontactvisits,
andwhatexactly
isacontactvisit?
-Gretzlerproposedit.
-Howdoesitwork?
-Contactvisitisonlygiven
indeathrow
toA-plusinmates.
-Certainwomen
haveafascination
withserialkillers,
andsomeofthathastodo
withthefantasyofidentifying
withthissuper-aggressiveman.
Andtheycanalsobethetamer
orthecontrollerofthis
vicious,viciousperson--
theTedBundys.
JeffreyDahmerreceived
tonsofloveletters.
-I'msoconfused
atthispoint.
Idon'tknowwhoI'mhaving
arelationshipwith--
DickVonier
orDouglasGretzler.
I'mtryingtoplayeverybody
offagainsteachother,
togetwhatIwant.
-Veryfewpeopleeveraskedme
questionsaboutme.
Inaway,he's
kindofturningitonme.
WhenIfirstgotinvolved
withGretzler,
Idoremember
tellingmymother,
becausemymother
wasasocialworker,
andshewasalittlenervous.
-Itwassortofthis
uncomfortablething
wedidn'twanttotalkabout
growingup
because,youknow,
itwasaserialkiller.
Youdon'treallywant
totalkaboutthat
aroundthedinnertable.
Iwouldcontend
thattherealstory
islessofabiographyofhim
andmoreabouthowthereporter
developsarelationship.
-Istartedarguingback
withfriends
whowouldautomaticallysay,
what'swrongwithyou?
I'dsay,
there'snothingwrongwithme.
Itispossibleforpeople
tohaveverydeepfriendships
withoutthembeingtraditional.
Ithinkthedifferenceis...
[whisperingeerily]
Serialkiller.
[dramaticmusic]
-Willieaskedhim,
doyouwantsome?
Andhesaid,
no,Idon'tbelieveinrape.
-DougandWillie
originallymadeThePact
torobdrugdealers,
butitdidevolve
tobeDougfollowing
anythingWillietoldhimtodo.
ButthistimeWillieasked,
andDougsaidno.
SoitshowedthatDoug
couldthinkonhisown.
-Rapeisusuallyacrime
ofpowerandcontrol,
andthatmayjustnothave
beenpartofDoug'smakeup.
Laura'sworkedhard
tocreatethatstory,
youknow,saying,
oh,herefused
toparticipateinarape.
Andpartofthatmightbe
theneedtobelieve
thatdeepinside
thissavage,cruelman
isreallythisromantic
andsomewhathonorableman.
-Youcan'tlookforlogic
wherethereisnone.
That'swhatmadethem
sofrightening.
Iwassodisgusted
byallofit.
-Lauraknowssheshouldbe
disgustedbyallofit,
buttheremustbeanotherside
tostayinvolvedandgodeeper.
Therearelotsofthingsthat
peoplecansaytorationalize
tothemselvesandmakeitokay
withtheirownmoralcompass.
-Willieknewheneededtocut
theseguysloose.
-Therearesomepeople
whowerespared,whogotaway.
WhatdidGretzlersay
aboutthatdecision
tosparethem?
-IbelieveWillieletherlive
becausehehad
sexualrelationship.
Imean,itwasobviouslyrape.
Andhowevermuch
shegrittedherteeth,
shefollowedeverymove
hewantedhertodo.
-DougandWillie
headbacktoArizona.
-AftertheykilledKen
andMike,
overthenextfivedays,
theywouldkill
threemorepeople.
-Talktome
aboutBobandYahfah.
Whenhearticulated
thosedetailstoyou,
howdiditmakeyoufeel?
-WilliestartssayingtoDoug,
youknow,Bob's
reallymakingmeuncomfortable.
Heknowssomething.
AndthenWilliesaid,
youdoBob,butnoguns.
Andhedidit
becauseWillietoldhimto.
Dougwentinside.
Helookedaround,
andhesawawhitelamp,
andherippedout
theelectricalcord.
Bob'slegsbeganflailingout,
asanybody'swould,kicking,
andhekickedWillie
inhisnuts,
andthatmadeDouglaugh.
-Madehimlaugh,yousaid?
-Yes.
-He'stalkingaboutamoment
oflevityforhim
asamanisdying.
-Becausehewasn'tthere.
Theydidn'thaveaplan.
-EverytimeIaskyou
aquestionabouthowyoufeel,
aboutyouremotions,youhave
thisjournalisticveneerup
whereyou'regoingintodetails
aboutthecrimesthatweknow.
-No,Iunderstand.
Itiscomplicated
becausethey'rekilling
andtheydon'tevenknow
whythey'rekilling.
Willieisholdingthegun
andshootsYahfah
inthebackofherhead.
Everytimewewouldtalk
aboutstufflikethat,
Iwouldjustbedisgusted.
Icouldn'tsittherein
themiddleofhearingallthis
andthensaytohim,
youmother----er,you'recrazy.
Whywouldyoudothis?
-Idon'tthinkanything
affectedDouganymore.
Youkillone,
youkilltwo,youkillten.
Idon'tthink
hegaveitmuchthought.
-Afewdayslater,police
foundBobandYahfah'sbodies
andinvestigatedtheirmurders.
Witnessesidentified
WillieandDoug,
andwarrantswerefinally
issuedfortheirarrest.
ThemoreIlearn
aboutthemurders,
itreallypushedmeintogoing
inadifferentdirection
withGretzler.
-Bynow,
GretzlerandIhavebeen
intouchforawhile.
Thererarelywentaweek
wherewehadn'texchanged
twoorthreeortentapes
orletters.
AndthenIwouldgo
visithim,too--
Iwouldsaytwiceamonth.
AndIfeltreallycomfortable
inspeakingaboutanything.
-Andsonowweweregoinginto
himbeingtoldbyhisfather
thathewasn'tpart
ofthefamily
andneverhadbeen.
DougandIhad
alotofsimilarities
interms
ofhowwewererejected
overandoveragain
byourparents.
Andwheneverwetalked
aboutbothofourpasts,
wekindofhad
thisunconditionalconnection.
-Hesaid,
I'venevertoldanybody
aboutthesethingsbefore.
Isaid,tellmemore.
-Youdon'tfeelspecial
inprison.
Butawomanwhodayafterday,
hourafterhour,
poursallthiseffortandwork
intocommunicatingwithyou
andneedingtoknow
theinneryou,
thatwouldmatteralot.
-EventuallyIsaid,look,
whatyourfatherdid
washorrible.
Hewasaterriblefather.
Butopenyour----ingeyes.
Lookinthemirror.
Thisdidn'thappeninavacuum.
You'vegottotake
someresponsibilityhere.
-Thereissomething
veryfreeing
abouttalking
onataperecorder.
Idrewhimout.
Imadehimfeelsafe.
Andthemorewedidthat,
themoreIcouldn'twait
togethomefromwork.
I'dbelike,oh,wait,
didIgetapackagetoday?
-Laurabelieved,
byaskingquestions
thatweredeeperanddeeper,
thatshewasgainingtrust
andshewasgivingtrust
bysharingback.
Andsoitreallycreates
thisillusionoftrueintimacy.
-Eventually...
Ithought
abouthimallthetime.
Atthatpoint,
IwaslivingwithDick.
SoIwouldgointo
thebathroom,lockthedoor...
Fillupthebathtub...
andIwouldlisten
tohimtalktomeaboutmurder.
-Dickcouldn'tstandGretzler.
Andthensoonhestarted
visitingGretzler.
-Dickwentwithyou?
-Oh,oh,hell,yeah,hedid.
-Tosee
whathiscompetitionwas?
-EventuallyDougtoldme
thathewasinlovewithme.
-Heusedthewords"inlove"
veryspecifically.
Iwashisbestfriend
intheworld
andpossiblyhisonlyfriend.
Butitdidallowmetosort
ofbecomehisdefactoshrink.
-IfDougreallylovedLaura,
hewouldn'texactlywanther
tothrowawaytenyears
listeningtotapes
inherbathtub.
-Whenyoulookatthesephotos
ofwhathedid...
-Yeah.
-Doesit...
fightagainstsomeofthegood
feelingsyouhaveforhim?
-Yeah,alittlebit,attimes.
-Iwoulddescribe
myaunt'srelationshiptohim
asdeeplycomplicated
andinappropriately
intertwined.
-Ijustfeltwewereina...
differentkindofrelationship,
onethatwasactually,
insomeways,
waymoreimportant
thanmyromanticones,
whichIhavebeen
adismalfailureat.
Iblurlines
ineveryrelationship
I'veeverhad.
Nobodyinlawenforcement
knewanything
aboutWillieandDoug'sspree,
andnobodyknewwhotheywere.
-WillieandDoug
werenotgonnastop.
-WhenIfirstheard
abouttheSandbergs,
Iwasactuallyworking
ontheGilbertSierracase.
Mr.Sandberg
waswashinghiscar...
rightthere.
AndSteelmanandGretzler
weredesperately
inneedofacar,
because
criminalrulenumberone
isgetoutoftheneighborhood.
[dramaticmusic]
-Intheapartment,they
encounteredPatriciaSandberg,
MichaelSandberg'swife.
Andtheytookboth
ofthemhostage,
andtheywaited
untilthesunwasgoingdown.
-TheSandbergmurders--
thosefeltdifferent
thantherest.
-Oh,theyweredifferent.
Theywerelikebad,
horribletiming,
andtheydideverything
thatSteelmanandGretzler
askedthemtodo.
AndIevenaskedGretzler,
Isaid,
iftheyhadbegged
fortheirlives,
wouldyouhavesparedthem?
Andhesaid,Ithinkthere
wouldhavebeenagoodchance
thatwewouldhave.
SoIaskedhim,whywould
youkillforsomeoneelse?
Whywouldyoufollow
someoneelse?
Whywouldyougiveup
yourfreedom?
-Idon'tunderstand
whyafteralltheseyears,
they'restillchatting.
Idon'tseehowyoucanlook
ataguythatkilled17people
andbelike,
eh,he'sallright.
Initially,
thestorywasthething
thatkepthergoingback,
andthenthehumanelement
tookoveratsomepoint.
-Abouttwo,three,
fouryearsin,
Dougfrequently
wouldaskmeforthings
thatwouldremindhimofme.
-Anotheronewas,
pleasesendhimpicturesofme
inabathingsuit.
Yeah,sure.
Icalledhim
theromanticserialkiller,
jokingly,becausehehad
aromanticstreak
thatwasinsane.
-Weweredeeplyconcerned
aboutthis.
I'mnotsure
howtransparentshewas,
evenwithmyfamily.
Itwassomethingthatmymom
didn'twanttotalkabout.
-Whileinprison,
Doughadstayedoutoftrouble,
andsohewasallowed
togetakeyboard.
[keyboardmelodyplaying]
Hewouldsendmelotsofmusic.
Hetookcassettes,like,
thatwewouldtapeon,
andhewould,
withwireandcards,
likeadeckofcards,
hewouldcutout...
KamaSutrapositions.
[laughs]
You'dblowonthis,
andthentheywouldallmove.
Hemademedifferentkinds.
Dougwasveryimaginative.
Afterthat,Iknew
hewantedsomethingback.
Evenifhedidn'taskforit,
hewantedit,
andIcouldn't.
HeknewIwasinvolved
withDick,
buthealsoknew
thatDicktreatedmeterribly.
Dickwasabadalcoholic,
andhewasstruggling.
-Andhewouldsay,look
athowsh---yhetreatsyou.
AndI'mthinking,oh,myGod,
youkilled17people,
andyou'reaskingme
howIcouldbe
withaboyfriend
becausehe'scranky?
ButDickandIbrokeup.
Wehadbrokenupinawaythat
wewereneverreallybrokenup.
Butlifechangedagain,
andImetKevin.
Dickwasagrown-up.
Kevinwasnotagrown-up.
ButIsawsomething
inKevinalso
thatIsawinmyself.
-WhenIfirstmetLaura,
Iwasworkingasachef
inagrocerystoreinPhoenix.
Andourfirstdate,
Iopenedupherrefrigerator,
andallofmyfoodwas
inherrefrigerator,uneaten.
Andshewouldcomein
andbuyitjusttoseeme.
-Isurethinkhelooks
alotlikeGretzler.
[chuckles]
ItoldKevinthat,
andhedoesn'tseeit.
-Idon'tthink
DouglasGretzler
isaveryattractiveman.
No,uh-uh.
-ItoldDougImetthisguy,
andGretzler
wasreallynothappy.
TenyearsaftermeetingKevin,
heproposed.
-Theoneperson
thatDoughated--
hated--wasKevin.
Therewasalittlebit
ofironythere,too--
theserialkillertellingme
IshouldgetawayfromKevin.
[dramaticmusic]
By1997,
DougandIhadexchanged
about300and400
audiocassettetapes.
IwentandvisitedDoug
200to350times
in10years.
-Whatwasthefascination
ofsitting
inaprivateroomwithhim?
-Becauseit'sneverenough
formetojustgethalfway.
Iwantedtoget
everylittlemorsel.
It'snotjustgonnabeatape.
It'snotjustgonnabe
aletter.
WhenI'msittingthere
andhecansmellmeupclose,
becausethisisamanwho's
beendeprived
forabout15years
ofanykindofhumancontact.
-Weknowtheyspent
physicaltimetogether,
andshesaidthose
lastedhours.
Whathappenedduring
thosemeetups?
Idon'tknow.
-Oneparticulartime
Iwentuptoseehim.
Andwhenwewere
rightoutsidetheroom,
heliftsmeup,and...
hekissesmeandstuck
histongueinmymouth.
AndIsaid,(BLEEP)you!
[chuckles]
Icouldseeheworkedhimself
uptodothat.
Hewasscared.
Andhesaid,Ishouldhavedone
thatalongtimeago.
-Wewentthroughalot
ofdifferentexperiences
emotionally
inthosetenyears.
Whatevermydeep
andabidingfriendship
withDouglasGretzlerwas,
thebestpartofitwas,
itdidn'thavealabel.
-AftertheSandbergs,
WilliehadbeentellingDoug,
weneedsomemoney,
andIknowwherewecangetit.
-Theyheaded
toWillie'sstompinggrounds...
Lodi.
-Thethingthatforme
defieslogicis,
Idon'tknowhowsomeone
couldtellyou
thegraphicdetails
ofcrimeslikethis
andyou'dwanttocontinue
formingahumanconnection.
TheLodimurderscometomind.
-MynameisJackEarl,
andmyauntandmyuncle
andmycousins
weremurdered
intheautumnof1973--
Richard,Wanda,Debbie,
andRickyEarl.
OnNovember6th,
WillieandDoug
hadarrivedinLodi,
andWilliehadtoldDoug
hewasgonnaripoff
theUnitedMarket.
Williehadbeenthere
manytimesbefore.
Theyweregonnabustin
rightatclosingtime.
Well,whentheypulled
intotheparkinglot
andthere'snolights
oninthemarket,
Williesaid,noproblem.
Iknowwheretheguylives.
WallyParkinwas
thebest-knownguyinLodi.
Wally,along
withhiswife,Joanne,
ownedtheUnitedMarket.
Thatnight,
Wallyhadleaguebowling.
So,desperateforababysitter,
hecalledDebbieEarl.
-TheEarlfamilywerejust
thefamilydownthestreet,
friendsoftheParkins.
-Debbiehadtoldhimearlier,
Ican'tbabysitanymore.
I'vegothomework.
Butshecouldn'tsayno.
Debbie'sdadbroughtherdown,
alongwithRicky,herbrother.
MycousinDebbie
wasjustthesweetest.
AndthenCousinRick--
hewastheonlykidIknew
wholovedtohunt
androller-skate.
[clearsthroat]
[breathesdeeply]
Itstillhurts.
Aroundabout8:00...
WillieandDougpulled
intotheParkinresidence.
Theygetout,
walkuptothefrontdoor.
Sheisnoticeably
alittlenervous,
andWilliesays,
hey,isWallyhome?
Iowehimsomemoney.
AndDebsaysno,
andtheyturnaround
andwalkbacktothecar.
-DebbieEarldidn'tlike
thelooksoftheseguys,
soshewentandcalled
herfather,RichardEarl,
who'srightdowntheroad.
-Richardtoldhiswife
hewasgonnagocheckon--
seewhathadhappened
and,ifhewasn'tback
shortlyafter,
tocallthepolice.
-Alittlebitlater,new
headlightspullupthedrive.
It'smyuncleRichard.
Hewalksin,
andWillieputsagun
atthebackofmyuncle'shead.
Hesaid,Itoldmywife,
ifI'mnotbackinacouple
minutes,callthesheriff.
Williedidn'tblink.
Williesaid,we'llgogether.
-WilliegivesDoug
thesix-shotandsays,
killthemallifI'mnotback
intenminutes.
-Steelmanleft,andheleft
Gretzlertherebyhimself.
Whydidn'tGretzler
justleavethehouse?
Whydidhegothroughwithit?
-Atthatparticularpoint,
he'stooscared.
Hesaid,doyouknow
howmanymurders
wehadcommittedalready?
Therewasnorunningfromthis.
-Atacertainpoint,
hewaspotcommitted.
-WillieandmyuncleRichard
hopinRichard'scar.
-Hedrivesdowntheroad,
whichislessthanaquarter
ofamile,getshiswife.
-Williewithagun
onherhusband'sneck,
andWandaisnowpart
ofthisscene.
-Andsonowyouhave
twowholefamilies.
They'rewaitingnow
forWallyandJoanneParkin,
whoareatthebowlingalley.
-Williemakesthisbigscene.
Don'teventhink
aboutmakingarunforit.
Bynow,MarkLangshowsup.
DebbieandMarkwereengaged.
MarkwasgonnapickDebbieup
afterbabysitting,
andhenowisonthescene,
tryingtocomforthisfiance
andcalmeverybodydown.
Butprettysoon,
WallyandJoannewalkin.
Andgunsarepointedatthem.
ButWilliesays,allwewant
todoisgetthemoney.
WilliedecidestotakeWally
downtothemarket.
-Dougdescribesfeeling
thathehadtodo
whatWilliesaid.
Clearly,therewassomething
aboutbeingcontrolled
byWillie
thatwasappealingtoDoug.
-WhileWillieandWally
weregone,
Dougisnowincharge,
andDoug'styingeverybodyup.
Ican'timaginethescene,
buttheysubmit.
-Thesevictimsclearlyknew
whatwashappening,
andtheirterror
andtheirsquirmingaround
mayhavebeentitillating
-Backatthemarket...
-Laterthatnighttheycounted
outafewthousanddollars,
byfarthemostmoneytheyhad
gotteninanyoftheirrips.
-WillieandDoug
hadtheirmoney,
andtherewereninepeople
inthathouse,
includingtwochildren.
Everybody'stiedup.
-[sighs]Dougcouldhavesaid,
ah,I'mdone.
Buthedidn't.
Willietapshim
ontheshoulder...
Pointedtothekidsinthebed.
Dougtookthegun.
-Ifyouweretosortofthink
about,like,
theworstpossiblecrimes
youcouldcommit,
itwouldbekillingkids,
whichishorrifying
toevensay.
Andshewasable,somehow,
tolookbeyondthat.
-Afterthat...
Theyjustwentinorder.
Richard,Wally,Joanne,Wanda,
Debbie,Rick,Mark.
-ItoldDoug,
you----ingmurdered
sevenpeople,
andyoumurdered
twochildrenfirst.
Youhadtohaveknown
thatthoseparents
heardtheirkidsbeingkilled.
Imean,whatiswrongwithyou?
Youhaveachildofyourown.
Hewouldgetveryquiet.
-You'retryingtoput
areasonableexplanation
tothemostunreasonableacts.
Theygrabbedthebag,got
intheDatsun,andtookoff.
[dramaticmusic]
-Thenextday,
WillieandGretzler
movedtoahotel
indowntownSacramento
calledtheClunieHotel,
kindofafleabaghotel.
Thesheriff
ofSanJoaquinCounty
waslookingforclues.
-Thesheriffspoke
withtheheadoftheFBI,
ClarenceKelley,
andsaid,we'vejusthad,
youknow,ninemurderedhere.
-Andhesaid,
well,wedohaveawarrant
that'sbeenissuedinArizona
foracoupleofguys
formurderingsomepeople
inamobilehome.
Andoneofthem
isfromyourarea,
WillieLutherSteelman.
Thesheriff'sofficewas
familiarwithWillieSteelman
becausehehadbeeninvolved
insomepettycrimes.
Sonowthey'vegotasuspect.
TheclerkattheClunieHotel
sawSteelman'spicture,
recognizedhim,
andcalledthecops.
-Withinmoments,thepolice
hadtheCluniesurrounded.
-WhenDougandIwouldtalk
aboutafterhewasarrested,
he'dalwayspathimself
onthebackforsaying,
I'veseenenoughkilling.
AndI'dsay,
Jesus----ingChrist,Doug,
youdidenoughkilling.
Itwasn'tthatyousaw
enoughkilling.
Youdidenoughkilling.
-Tosay
I'veseenenoughkilling
isapassiverecalling
ofactionsthatyoudid,
anditisawaytodistance
andnotown
whatyoudid.
-Dougwastednotime
inturningonWillieSteelman.
-Withinminutes,
Gretzlerledpolice
toanapartment
aboutamileaway,
whereSteelmanhadtakenrefuge
inthehomeofagirlfriend.
Inthatwhitehouse
backthere,
WillieSteelman,thesecond
suspectinthismassmurder,
istrapped.
Policehavesurrounded
thehouse.
-Eventually
Williesteppedout.
-AfterDougandWillie
werearrested,
Dougconfessed
toallthemurders.
-TheSanJoaquinCounty
Sheriff
saysDouglasGretzler
andWillieSteelman
gaveinformationthatled
totheeightothervictims
inArizonaandCalifornia.
-Whentheyfoundhim,
Iwas12.
AndIthought,
Dougwasnotthatperson.
Ineversawhimgetinafight.
Hewasnevermean.
Icouldn'tbelieveit.
Howcouldmybrother
havedonethat?
-Afterheconfessed,
hejustshutdown.
Forthenext12years,
nobodyheardfromhimagain.
Hedidn'tgiveinterviews,
andDougtoldme
thathehadn'thad
asinglevisitoruntilme.
Andhetoldmewhenhewas
arrested,hewasveryempty,
andhecouldn'tevenmakesense
ofwhyhedidanyofthis.
-Therewasnodeathpenalty
inCalifornia
atthetime
oftheLodikillings.
Andsotheauthorities
wantedtosendthem
toArizona...
becauseArizona
hadadeathpenalty.
-Childrenlearn
amoralcompass,
andtheylearnempathyearly.
Thereissomeinnateempathy,
buttheparentandtheculture
they'reliving--
thatallshouldreinforce
andteachthat.
Thisisnotwhathappened.
Theproblemis,bythetime
someoneisanadult
whoreallyhasantisocial
personalitydisorder,
it'snotterriblytreatable.
-SteelmanandGretzler
wereextraditedtoArizona
tofacecharges
intheSandbergcase
butnottheSierracase,
becausetheevidence
intheSandbergcase
wasstronger.
Whenitwasallover,
bothSteelmanandGretzler
wereconvictedinArizona,
andtheywerebothsentenced
todeath.
-In1977,
fouryears
afterDougwasarrested,
IwenttovisitDouginprison.
Hewouldtellmeabouthow
hedreamedofescaping.
AndIjustremembercomingout
fromthereandthinking,
heneedstobewhereheis.
Mydadbelieved
inthedeathpenalty,
andIthinkhefelt
thatitwasjustifiedforDoug,
eventhoughDougwashisson.
[dramaticmusic]
-Theonlyway
Gretzlersortoffoundhimself
andfoundhis--
I'llusetheword"remorse,"
butit'snotthecorrectword.
Hisutterhatredatwhathedid
waswhenhemet
hisgrandchildren,
andhesaid,
Ineedtobe----ingdead.
Hesaid,Ican'tbelieve
Ikilledtwoinnocentchildren
thesameageasthem.
Youknow,whenyou'refaced
withsomething,
it'sverydifferent.
-Itpersonalized
whathe'ddone.
-Exactly,yeah.
-Itwas
aten-yeartherapysession.
-ThepersonImetin1988
wasremovedfromhisownself.
Astimemovedon,
everythingchanged.
Hehadvolumeand...
opinions,
andallofasudden,
ourfeelingsweregoing
backandforthand...
fullyhonest.
-Idon'tthinkhedeserved
tobeoutofprison,
butdoIbelievehechanged?
Absolutely.
WhateverpartIplayedin...
hispersonalredemptionstory,
everybodyheldit
againstme,too.
Iwasabsolutelyputdown,
stompedonemotionally
forhavinganything
todowithhim.
Iwenttothepostoffice
tomailalettertoDoug,
andthepost-officeguy
tookhisscissors
andstartedjabbingme.
Andhesaid,doyouknow
whoyou'rewritingto?
Doyouknowwhathedid?
AndIsaid,yeah,Ido.
-Iwasappointed
torepresenthim.
Thesystemaffords
peoplesentencedtodeath
anumberofdifferentappeals.
-Itwasduringhisfinalplea
infederalcourt
whenGretzlerfinallytold
hisappealsattorneys,
hey,I'vehadenough.
We'redone.
WhenIfirstmetLaura,
Iwasblownawaythatshehad
alltheserecordings
ofDougGretzler.
-JackandImet
throughWeaver
inearly1992.
JackandIstartedtoforge
afriendship.
-Throughoutyourconnection
withGretzler,
youwerealsodeveloping
arapport
withthevictims'families.
-Isawitasgiving
thestoryvolume.
Ididn'tseeitasjournalism.
Isawitas,
whowerethesepeople
thatI'vebeenreadingabout
inpolicereports?
Iwantedtohumanizethem.
-Shehad
aclosepersonalrelationship
withaguythatputbullets
inmyfamily'shead.
Ididn'tknowifIwassupposed
tobemadather,
buteventually
Iwasinvitedtotheprison
whereGretzlerwasstillhoused
ondeathrow.
Iwasimmediatelyonaquest.
Ihadtolearneverything
aboutwhathadhappened.
[breathesdeeply]
So...
afewdayslater,
Iarriveattheprison.
AndDougwasgetting
very,verynervous.
Andhesaid,
haveyoueverthrown
apebbleinapond?
Yeah,sure.
Says,youseethoseripples?
Theyjustgoandgoandgo.
That'smyproblem.
Ican'tcometoterms
withtheripples.
Ihavenoidea
howmanypeopleI'veaffected
bywhatI'vedone.
Andhewasright.
Ithoughtthatwas
themosthoneststatement
apersoncouldhavemade.
Laurahadnoproblem
callinghimonhisactions.
Imean,
she'stheonethatsaid,
don'tyouhaveaconscience?
AndDougapparentlysaid,
Idon'tknow.
Howdoyougetone?
AndIthinkthatconversation
allowedDoug
tofindhisconscience.
-Hehadtoarrive
atalotofthese
emotionaldepartures,
onsomelevel,
fromthewayheusedtothink.
Itwasn'tuntilherealized
thathehadthecapacity
toactuallylovesomeone,
eventhoughhehaddonethese
horrific,horrificcrimes
andheknewthem.
-Sohislovetowardsyou
unlockedhiscapacity
forremorse,
orhoweveryouwant
todefineit.
-Yeah,yeah.
-Wereyoucognizantat
thetimethatyouhadprompted
thisserialkiller
tofeelanykindofway
aboutwhathe'ddone?
-Iwasjustlike,oh,
sowearereallyallcreatures
ofhowwe'retreated
bypeoplewholoveus.
-He'sright.
Hewasdeeplysorry
forwhathehaddone.
Healsoknew
thattherewasnothing
hecoulddotochangeit.
In1991,Ireachedout
tohissisterDee,
andIsaid,youknow,
he'sgothisrightmindback.
You'rewelcometocome.
-Bythispoint,
15yearshadpassed.
WhenIwenttovisit,
Dougapologized
forallthemess
thatcameabout
fromhisactions.
-Historically,
theoddsareincrediblylow,
withantisocialpersonality
disorder,tochange.
And,really,prisonisamatter
ofkeepingsocietysafe
fromsomebodywhoprobably
isn'tgoingtobeable
tomakechanges.
-Icameaway...
firstoff,withthepower
offorgiveness.
IhadforgivenDougGretzler.
Ijustcouldn'tcarry
thatburdenaroundanymore.
Forgiveness
isapowerfulthing,and...
Ididn'tknowthatuntilI...
forgavesomebody,youknow?
-Dougcuthimselfoff
sodeeply,
butLaurapushedhim
tolookathimself.
She'sobsessive,
butIalsothink
thatshe'slikeabridge.
Youknow,thatshecouldbe
friendswithamurderer,
friendswith
themurderer'sfamily,
andconnect
withvictims'familiesaswell.
It'sprettyremarkable.
-Attheendoftheday,
17peopledied.
It'sheinous,it'srepulsive,
it'sgruesome,
andhe'ssmartenough
toknow,aswealldo,
thatthisisanatrocity.
Tenyearsisalongtime
totalktosomebody
ondeathrow.
-Therewasnosingleday
inthelastsixmonths
ofhislife
thatIwasnotconsumed
bynotjustGretzler
buttheGretzlerfamily
andtheimpendingexecution.
-Itcamecertifiedmail,
yeah,theinvitation,so...
"Youhavebeenselected
"byinmate
DouglasEdwardGretzler
"tobeinvitedtowitness
hisexecution
"attheArizona
StatePrisonComplex
"inFlorence,Arizona,
atapproximately3:00p.m.
onJune3,1998."
Hereallywantedme
togotohisexecution.
Hesaid,Ijustwantyou
tobethelastthingIsee.
[voicebreaking]
Thatmakesmecry.
-Outofeveryonehelists...
-Mm-hmm.
-You'rethefirst.
-[sniffles]
Itjustfeltlike
anawesomeresponsibility.
-Oneofthelasttimes
IsawDoug,
hewasinthedeathhouse.
Thatwasprobablythebesttime
Ieverhadwithhim.
Hewassinging
anurseryrhymeabout,
haveyoueverput
yourchewinggum
onthebedpostatnight?
Isaid,Ineverevenheard
ofthat.
-Doesthespearmint
loseitsflavor
Onthebedpostovernight...
-Towardstheveryend,
hegotquiet,
andIrememberstaringathim.
-Can'tyousee
I'mgoingcrazy?
Won'tsomebody
putmeright?
-Hewasgettingyounger.
Itwasthestrangestsensation
Ieverhad.
Hisfaceismelting
andyoungerandyounger
andyounger...
-Idon'tknow
whattodo...
-Tobeforehehadeverharmed
anybodyoranything.
-Itwasagruesome
murderspree--17deaths.
2menaretoblame,
andtomorrowoneofthosemen
willdieforhiscrimes.
-Laurasaid,
yougottobethere.
He'sexpectingyou.
-LauraandIwent
totheexecution.
Itwaslikegoingtoatheater,
becausetherewas
thiswallofglass
andthenthecurtainsopened.
[sombermusic]
Andhelayonagurney,
strappeddown.
-TotherightwasJackEarl,
andDeehadherhands
onmyshoulder.
-Andhelooked
atLauraandme.
Eventuallyhiseyesclosed.
AndIjustrememberhislips
hadsoftened,just...
[trillslips]
Thatfinalbreath.
And...
thenhewasgone.
-Ijustfelt
really,reallysad.
Ilaidinmybed,
andIwatched
about100"Law&Orders,"
andIateasmuchjunkfood
asIcouldforaboutamonth.
Aftertheexecution,
aboutacoupleweekslater,
themailcame.
Andinitwasabox,
aprettybigbox,
anditweighedprobably
aboutthreepounds.
Thisis...
[dramaticmusic]
Doug'sashes.
I'mreallyglad
thatIdidn'tlisten
topeoplewhotoldme,
you'reanut,you'recrazy,
andthatItookachance
onDoug.
Ihadtogopickup
allofhisthings--
PertPlus,ayellowsoapdish.
Thisisnowhowold,
27yearsold?
-Asmyauntdeveloped
thisconnectionwithGretzler,
shealsospiderwebbed
thatcommunication
outtomassivetree
ofpeople
involvedinthisstory.
AndIthinkmany
haveverycomplicatedfeelings
abouther
becauseofherlevelofaccess
thatshewasabletoultimately
developwithGretzler.
-Dougdid
veryhorriblethings.
Butitwastheveryseriousness
ofwhathedid
thatinterestedme.
Ifhehadrobbed
aliquorstore,
wewouldnothavespent
tenyearstalking.
Thislookslikehair.
Hehasverynicehair, actually.
Oneofthemostimportant
thingsforme
wastowriteabook
aboutmyexperience,
notjustthespree,
notjustthevisits
buttherelationship
betweenGretzlerandI.
-She'sbeenwritingabook
aboutthisforfourdecades.
Idon'tthinkthisstory
isevergonnabedoneforher.
Youthink
you'regonnafinishit?
-DoIthinkIwillfinishit?
IfIwantto.
WheneverIwouldsitdown
totrytowritethisstory,
Ijust--
Iwaslike,it'stoobig.
Ididn'tknow
howtogettherightwordsout.
Andthentwoyearsago,
Isatdown,andIsaid,
IknowDougwouldwantme
togofinish.
I'mreallyclosetotheend,
andIhaven'tstopped.
But,damn,
it'sthehardestthing
I'veeverdoneinmylife.
-Myauntiscompletely
codependentwiththisstory.
Ithasconsumed
hermentalenergy,
herphysicalhouse.
Ithinkthere's,
inmanyways,afear
ofthisstoryending,
becausewhat'snext?
Whatisclosureonthistoyou?
-Ihavenoidea.
-Weallhaveblindspots
ashumanbeings,
andmyaunt
isacomplicatedperson.
[dramaticmusic]
-Thisis50years
ofcollectingmurderabilia,
memorabilia...
stuffhavingtodowith
theSteelman/Gretzlercase.
Asareporter,
Iwrotealotaboutcrime.
-Iknewmyaunt
wasinterviewingsomebody
whohadkilledsomeone.
-17deaths.
Somesayit'soneoftheworst
crimespreesinhistory.
-Bythetime
theygotcaught,
theyhadkilled17people
in20days.
-Iwantedtounderstand
themonster.
Whatpushedhimover
theedgetodoit?
Howcouldsomeoneput
twobulletsintothebrains
oftwochildren?
Can'tgetmuchcolder
thanthat.
Istartedtoreadabouthim.
Igothooked.
Isawit
asapsychologicalwhodunit.
Ihaveeverypolicereport,
victim'sphoto,
courtexhibits.
Thisisnowhowold?
27yearsold?
It'sverynicehair,actually.
-Therealconcernisknowing
herobsessivepersonality
andwherethat
couldultimatelylead.
Ididn'tfullyknow
thescopeofthis
untilshecalledmeup
andsaid,hey,Ithink
thatthere'sastory
tobetoldhere
aboutmyconnection
toDouglasGretzler.
Decadeslater,tofindout
thattheworstkiller,
whoseeminglyspoketonoone
fortenyearsondeathrow,
wasactuallyprolifically
talkingtoasingleperson
theentiretime...
anditjustsohappens
thatpersonismyaunt.
-WhenImetDouglasGretzler,
Ididn'tknow
whatIwasinfor.
IwentandvisitedDoug
350timesinprison.
Wewrotehundredsofletters,
andwerecorded500-plushours
ofaudiotapes.
Iwouldfillupthebathtub,
andIwouldlistentohimtalk
tomeaboutmurder.
Iwasobsessedwiththestory.
Absolutelynobodyhasheard
thesetapesexceptme...
untilnow.
-Itwas
agruesomemurderspree.
-October1973...
twomengoonaroadtrip
thatturnsdeadly.
Theyrob,steal,
andmurderalongtheway--
marriedcouples,
parents,children.
Itbeganwhenthepairkidnap
andmurdertwomen.
-MikeAdshadeandKenUnrein.
Theythenmurderedtheir
thirdvictim,SteveLoughran.
BobRobbinsbecame
thefourthvictim.
-Awomaniskidnapped
andmurdered.
-Yahfah,KatherineMestites.
-GilbertSierra.
-Patricia
andMichaelSandberg.
-November4th
thepairtravelstoCalifornia,
wheretheykilledninepeople.
-Itwaslikesomething
outofanovel.
Awealthybusinessman,
hisfamily,hisfriends,
allmass-murdered
incoldblood.
-Thiswasthebiggest
mass-murderspreein1973.
Butasquickly
asthemurdersunfolded,
theywerecompletelyforgotten.
MynameisLauraGreenberg,
andIamawriter,
andI'vebeenawriter
forabout35years...
mostlyreporting.
IgrewupinLaurelton,Queens.
Ifoundajournal--
Iwas13--
thatsaid,whenIgrowup,
Ieitherwanttobe
apsychiatristorawriter.
Towardstheendof1976,
whenIwas21,
myfamilymovedtoTucson.
Afriendofminesaid,
hey,Iknowpeople
startingamagazine,
anditwascalled
"CityMagazine."
AndsoIcalledthemup
andsaid,hi,I'mLaura.
AndIsaid,Ineedajob.
Twodayslater,DickVonier
showedupatmyapartment.
Hewasaseasonednewspaperman.
Hehadinkinhisveins.
AndIsmiledalot,
fedhimalotofcoffee,
andthenextdayhecalledme,
andhesaid,you'rehired.
Ididn'tknowanything
aboutwriting,
exceptIwasyoungandhungry.
Dickwasanadult.
Hewas17yearsolderthanme.
AndIstartedarelationship
withDick.
Iwasverybusytrying
tosortofclimbtheladder,
writingaboutplacestoeat,
whatrockgroupswerecoming.
Butprettyquickly
Istartedwormingmyway
intothecrimeworld
andendedupbeing
prettygoodatit.
-Myaunt,shetaggedalong
withthecrimeunit
tocrimescenes.
Shebroughtbakedgoodsthat
shewouldmakeinherkitchen
toformrelationships
withlocalcops.
-Ididthatbecausethen
theystartedtoseeme
notjustasa"reporter,"
becausetheydon'tlike
reportersingeneral,
buttheystartedtoseeme
asahumanbeing.
Youalwaysgottotry
tofindtheedge.
In1986,
Igotatiponastory
abouttwomassmurderers
onArizona'sdeathrow.
Iwantedtowrite
aboutsomething
thatnoone
hadeverwrittenaboutbefore,
andnobodyreallyevenknew
whothehellwereDougGretzler
andWillieSteelman.
WillieSteelmandied
ofliverfailurein1986,
butIknew
thathiscrimepartner,
DouglasGretzler,
wasstillalive.
SoIwroteDoug,andIsaid,
wouldyoubewilling
totalktome?
Iwantedtoknow,howcould
amankill17people?
Hesaid,onlyifyou'rewilling
tocomehere
soIcanlayeyesonyou.
-[knocksondoor]
Hey!
-Hey.
-[chuckles]
How'sitgoing?
Goodtoseeyou.
Throughoutmychildhood,
everyoneusedtotalk
aboutmyaunt
havingthisweirdconnection
toaguynamedGretzler.
-Thisismyworkspace.
Iworkonthebed.
-Whatisallofthis?
-Soallofthis
ismany,manyyears
ofstuffhavingtodowith
thekillerDouglasGretzler.
-Thisstoryhasdominated
myaunt'slife.
Youknow,she'sobsessed.
-It'severyfile
intheworld,okay?
Allofthecourtcases,
notes,interviews.
-Yourentirehome
hasturnedintoamuseum...
-Yeah.
-Toaguy
thatmurdered17people.
Howdoesthathappen?
-Butmylifehasalwaysbeen
aboutextremes.
Tome,thisisverymuch
anAmericanstory.
AndIusedhim,inasense,
asatourguide
toaworldofviolence.
ThefirsttimeIwenttogo
visitDouglasGretzler,
Iwassonervous,
Iwentthrough
probablyaboutfour
orfiveXanax.
AndwhenIgotupthere,
Iwasstanding
inthevisitingroom.
Hesatdown,andIsaid,
hey,I'mLaura.
Ididn'tknow
whatIwasinfor.
Hewasstaringatme
intotalsilence.
Andthenheapologized,
becausehe'dneverreallyhad
avisitorbefore.
Thisissomeone
who'sbeenondeathrownow
15years.
Hedidn'ttrustanybody.
Gretzlerhadnevergiven
aninterviewtoanyreporter.
Hetoldme
thatmyletterintriguedhim.
Dougwassonervous.
Iwentoutofmyway
tomakehimfeelrelaxed.
IfoundoutDougandIhad
alotincommon.
WewerebothfromNewYork.
Weweresarcastic
witheachother.
Wewouldtalkaboutmusic.
Wehadthiscultureincommon,
andwebothwereobsessed
withthehumanmind.
-Istheresomething
thatsparked
yourinitialconnection
beyondjustreporting?
-Hewasscarysmart,
soIhadto,like,reallyuse
mybrain.
Icouldn'tjustphoneitin.
-Ithinkmyaunt
hasalwaysbeenseeking
somebodytochallengeher--
emotionally,intellectually.
Andit'shard
towrapmyheadaround,
becausetome...
[chuckles]
Ifsomebodytellsyou
theymurdered17people,
that'sahardswipeleft.
[chuckles]
-AndIjustrealized
prettyfast,
thisisareallydifferentkind
ofstory.
Ireallywantedtofindout
whyhedidthesethings.
AftermeetingDoug,hesaid,
wouldyoubewilling
torecordaudiotapes
andsendthemtome?
SoIwouldsendhiminone,
hewouldlisten,
andthenhewouldrespond.
Theseare
allmyGretzlertapes.
-Sohowmanytapes?
-Well,Gretzler
wouldbe500hours.
And...
absolutelynobodyhasheard
thesetapesexceptme...
untilnow.
-Idon'tthinkanything
affectedDouganymore.
Youkillone,youkilltwo,
youkillten.
-Hesaid...
I'venevertoldanybody
aboutthesethingsbefore.
Isaid,tellmemore.
-Herlifehasbeenconsumed
bythisstory.
-Isaid,whatthe(BLEEP)
iswrongwithyou?
-Iblurlinesinevery
relationshipI'veeverhad.
DougandIintroduced
thisotherstarringcharacter,
andthatwasataperecorder.
Westartedsendingtapes
backandforth.
Wejustsortoftalked
aboutsex,love,anddrugs.
Wechitchatted
abouteverything.
[tensemusic]
-Aretheretapeselsewhere?
-Yeah.
Oh,ironically,look.
-Oh,it'sme!
-[laughs]Iswear--
-It'smeandmysister
inapile
ofserial-killeraudiotapes.
[laughter]
-Asareporter,
Ihadtofigureoutaway
togethimtoopenuptome.
Afteraboutadozentapes,
hestartedtoopenup
alittlebitmore,
butitwasgradual.
Intheverybeginning,
wetalked
aboutourupbringings,
andIlearned
allabouttheGretzlerfamily.
[dramaticmusic]
-Dougwasatypicalboy.
Hewasalwayssupercreative,
andhepainted,
andheplayedmusic,
andhewasalwaysmakingstuff.
Heputalittlemotor
onthebackofhisbicycle.
[laughs]
Like,whodoesthat?
Hewasmechanicallyinclined,
andmydadvaluedacademics,
andthatwasn'tDoug.
Dougwasmorecreative.
-Therewassomething
behindthescenes
inthisverywell-to-dofamily
thatdidn'tquitemeettheeye.
Doug'sbrotherMark--hewas
theappleofhisfather'seye.
IthinkDougwaseverything
hedidn'twantinason.
-Markwastheacademic.
Oneday
hebrokeintotheschool
andstoletheanswers
totheRegentsExam.
Helostalltheprivileges
forhissenioryear,
andI'msure--
Poof!
[voicebreaking]I'msure
itwasreallyhardonhim.
[breathesdeeply]
-TheGretzlerfamily
wasgoingtohave
afamilymeeting
onhowtohelpMark.
-FathersaystoDoug,goon
upstairsandgetyourbrother.
SoDougrunsupthestairs
andopensthedoor
andseeshisbrother
withblood
allthewayaroundhishead.
Markhadshothimself.
-Inreading
thepsychologicalreports
bythepsychologist
whoevaluatedDoug,
hehadareallytraumatic
upbringing--
andparticularlythisbrother
killinghimself.
Youaddtothat
whatsoundslikeaveryharsh
andunlovingfather.
-Nooneevertalked
abouthisbrother'sdeath
withinthefamily.
Itjustsortof,like--
thedoorwasclosed.
-Hewasstruggling,
clearlyhad
terriblylowself-esteem,
andthenhehas
thisterribleloss--
allofthismakinghim
susceptible
tolookingforsomebody
whowouldbelikeafather
orwhowouldbelikeabrother.
-Ididn'tknowitatthetime,
butmybrotherwasdoingdrugs.
-Healreadyhadevidence
ofhisowntype
ofpsychiatricdisorder,
psychoticdisorder.
Sohejuststarted
toself-treat
hismental-healthproblems
withallthesedrugs.
-Theseareallfeatures
ofearlysignsofantisocial
personalitydisorder.
Youputanoverlay
ontopofthat
ofheavysubstanceabuse,
thisisnotagoodsetup
intermsofsomebody
whowillbesafe
tobeoutinsociety.
-Dougfinishedhighschool
in1969
andwenttoFlorida.
[birdschirping]
-Oh,man.
Sothisis
Judy's19thbirthday.
Andthisis
ourTuckahoekitchen.
-Thetwostarted
hangingout,havingfun.
Andthenshesaid
toDougonenight,
Ihavesomethingtotellyou.
-Soheknockedherup.
Hegotmarried,
andhecamebacktoNewYork.
AndIrememberhimwalkingup
throughthebackyard
withhisbabyinhisarms.
Myfatherhelpedthemget
anapartmentintheBronx.
-Aftertwoyears,theywanted
tohaveanotherbaby.
SoJudygetspregnant,
andDougwasveryexcited.
ButJudyandDougstarted
tohavesomeproblems,
andwithinaveryshortperiod
oftime,
shehasanabortion.
-Whentheabortionhappened,
Dougfeltthetrust
betweenhimandJudy
wasbetrayed.
Andthisiswhere
everythingchanged.
OnDecember26,1972,
Dougabandonedhisfamily
andheadedwest.
Isaid,Doug,
youhaveawifeandachild
thatyouadore.
JesusChrist,howcouldyou?
-Itmaybe
thatitwasupsetting
thatthiswoman
abortedhisbaby.
Atthesametime,
helefthiswifeanddaughter
withnomeansofsupport
andjustabandonedthem.
Abandonment
isaterribleabuse.
-Hehadmetafriend,
andsohedecidedhewasgonna
govisithiminDenver.
Hisfriendtookhimover
tothisguy'shouse.
Itwaslikeacrashpad.
Ithadalotofpeople
comingandgoing,
alotofdrugs,
alotofalcohol.
DougwasinDenver
acoupleofweeks
beforehemetaman
thatwouldchange
hislifeforever...
WillieLutherSteelman.
Therewassomething
aboutWillie
thatDougwasdrawnto.
-Doughasthisterribleloss,
makinghimsusceptible
tolookingforsomebody
whowouldbelikeabrother,
andWilliefulfilledthat.
-Hehadapowertohim.
Thatwastheway
Dougdescribedittome.
WilliewouldsortoftellDoug
whattodo,
andDoug
wouldjuststartfollowing.
WillieSteelman
hadahardlife.
HewasfromLodi,California.
-Mr.Steelman
hadbeeninstitutionalized
forveryserious
psychoticproblems.
[indistinctchatter]
-OnenightinDenver,
they'regettinghigher
andhigher,
andWillieissaying,
man,weneedsomemoney.
That'swhentheymadeThePact.
-ThePactentailed...
DougfollowinganythingWillie
toldhimtodo.
-Themostfatalwords
inthisentirethingwas,
willyoubackmyplay?
AndforDoug,thatwas
likesigninghislifeaway.
-ThePact
waslikealovepact.
ItseemsasthoughDoug
wassusceptibletoWillie
asastand-inforhisbrother.
-DougandWillie
wereseparatehumanbeings.
Aftertheymet,
thissymbioticrelationship
formedathirdpersonality.
Whenyouputthemtogether,
theyturnintosomething
thatisextremelydangerous.
-Theyjustsaid,
hey,let'sdoaroadtrip.
ItwasthemiddleofOctober.
Theypiledintothecar
insearchofmoredrugs,
andthatroadtrip
ledtoamurderspree.
-Therewassomethingabout
beingcontrolledbyWillie
thatwasappealingtoDoug.
Andthatheactually
didn'thaveaproblem
withwhatWilliesaid,because
hisdesiretobewithWillie
overrodeanythingWillie
couldhavetoldhimtodo.
-Thewayhetermedittome
is,Laura,Iwasdrowning,
andWillieSteelman
wasmybuoy.
Junkiesjustalwaysare
onthemove,
andWilliesays,
we'regonnagodowntoPhoenix.
It'swarmer.
-Marshawasjust
acutelittlehippiegirl.
Theygettogether,
andtheystartdriving.
Marshareallywantedtogosee
herfriendYahfah.
ShelivedinPhoenix.
-KenledWillie
andMarshaandDoug
tothelittletrailer
outinApacheJunction,
wheretheyfinallywoundup
seeingYahfah
andherboyfriendBobRobbins.
AftervisitingwithYahfah,
KenandMike
tookWillieandDoug
backtothehotelintown.
AndnowWillieandDoug,
theywerejustgettinghigh.
-Itbecameabuffet
ofhallucinogenics,weed,hash,
heroin,speed,chickencrank.
-WhydidGretzlerandSteelman
wanttorobKenandMike,
andwhatdidthey
getoutofit?
-Williewantedmoney
andwheels.
Thiswastheshiftinwhatwas
kindofahippie-dippie
druggyspree.
Thisiswhenitallchanged.
SoKenandMikewerekidnapped
byWillieandDougatgunpoint.
Therewasnoplan.
Imean,itwasinsane.
-Theyparkedthevan,
andWillieandDoug
walkedKenandMike
downintothislittleravine,
tiedthemup,andWillie
andDougwalkedback.
AndWillietapsDoug
ontheshoulderandsays,
wecan'tleaveanywitnesses.
-WilliesaidtoDoug,
youtakeMike,I'lltakeKen.
Ibelievethatthatwas
Willie'stest
tosee,howfarwouldDouggo
forhim?
Thiswouldbe
thedangerousthreshold
fromwhich
theycouldn'treturn.
[dramaticmusic]
-Iwaslike,howcouldyou?
Andhesaid,
becauseWillietoldmeto.
-WhatdidGretzlertellyou
aboutKenandMike?
-Theydidn'thavetodie.
-Heobviouslyexplained
toyou
somereallygraphicdetails
ofthecrimes.
Canyoudescribehowyou
ultimatelyfeltaboutit?
-Right,ashe'syanking
andhe'stakinghisknee
andpushinghimdown
ontotheground,
andmeanwhileWillie
issortofscreaming,
you'renotdoingthisright.
-Tohearthatlevelof...
visceraldetail
isgross.
-Atthatpoint,I'mdisgusted,
butI'mnotfeeling.
Ihadtoremove
sortofthis
judgmentalfeelingstate
inorderforme
tokeepfindingoutmore.
Isaid,this
boughtyounothing.
ThemurdersofMikeAdshade
andKenUnrein
arethemostimportant,
becausetheysetthem
ontheroadtoirreversible.
AndforDoug,
itwasoneorahundred.
Itdidn'tmatter.
OnceDougwaswilling
tostrangletodeath
MikeAdshade,
hewasnolongerDoug.
Hewastheproperty
ofWillieSteelman.
-Dougbelievedtherewas
superintimacybetweenthem.
Itwaslikealovepact.
There'saconsummation
indoingthesekinds
ofcrimestogether.
-Hestartedtoopenupmore,
andIrealized
thatneitheroneofus
everfitinanywhere.
Thatwasourglue.
-Howdidyougethim
toopenup?
-Well,Iasked.
-Whenareallysmart,pushy
journalistwithnofilter
befriendedhim,
itwastheperfectcombination
forhimtofindachannel
thathewascomfortable
toopenupto.
-Apersonwithantisocial
personalitydisorder
needstofeelspecial.
Manipulationislike
yourwayoflife.
AndIhavenottreatedLaura,
butclearlyLaurawasreadyto
bemanipulated.
-Afterayearandahalf
ofsendingtapesandletters
andhavingphonecalls,
Iwantedsomeprivacy,
andsodidhe.
Andweweregranted
contactvisits.
Inordertogetthosevisits,
Ihadtocomeuponceamonth
forayear.
Contactvisitwasdifferent
thanmeetingbehindglass.
Yougointoasmallroom
withatableandtwochairs.
-Whoproposedtheidea
ofcontactvisits,
andwhatexactly
isacontactvisit?
-Gretzlerproposedit.
-Howdoesitwork?
-Contactvisitisonlygiven
indeathrow
toA-plusinmates.
-Certainwomen
haveafascination
withserialkillers,
andsomeofthathastodo
withthefantasyofidentifying
withthissuper-aggressiveman.
Andtheycanalsobethetamer
orthecontrollerofthis
vicious,viciousperson--
theTedBundys.
JeffreyDahmerreceived
tonsofloveletters.
-I'msoconfused
atthispoint.
Idon'tknowwhoI'mhaving
arelationshipwith--
DickVonier
orDouglasGretzler.
I'mtryingtoplayeverybody
offagainsteachother,
togetwhatIwant.
-Veryfewpeopleeveraskedme
questionsaboutme.
Inaway,he's
kindofturningitonme.
WhenIfirstgotinvolved
withGretzler,
Idoremember
tellingmymother,
becausemymother
wasasocialworker,
andshewasalittlenervous.
-Itwassortofthis
uncomfortablething
wedidn'twanttotalkabout
growingup
because,youknow,
itwasaserialkiller.
Youdon'treallywant
totalkaboutthat
aroundthedinnertable.
Iwouldcontend
thattherealstory
islessofabiographyofhim
andmoreabouthowthereporter
developsarelationship.
-Istartedarguingback
withfriends
whowouldautomaticallysay,
what'swrongwithyou?
I'dsay,
there'snothingwrongwithme.
Itispossibleforpeople
tohaveverydeepfriendships
withoutthembeingtraditional.
Ithinkthedifferenceis...
[whisperingeerily]
Serialkiller.
[dramaticmusic]
-Willieaskedhim,
doyouwantsome?
Andhesaid,
no,Idon'tbelieveinrape.
-DougandWillie
originallymadeThePact
torobdrugdealers,
butitdidevolve
tobeDougfollowing
anythingWillietoldhimtodo.
ButthistimeWillieasked,
andDougsaidno.
SoitshowedthatDoug
couldthinkonhisown.
-Rapeisusuallyacrime
ofpowerandcontrol,
andthatmayjustnothave
beenpartofDoug'smakeup.
Laura'sworkedhard
tocreatethatstory,
youknow,saying,
oh,herefused
toparticipateinarape.
Andpartofthatmightbe
theneedtobelieve
thatdeepinside
thissavage,cruelman
isreallythisromantic
andsomewhathonorableman.
-Youcan'tlookforlogic
wherethereisnone.
That'swhatmadethem
sofrightening.
Iwassodisgusted
byallofit.
-Lauraknowssheshouldbe
disgustedbyallofit,
buttheremustbeanotherside
tostayinvolvedandgodeeper.
Therearelotsofthingsthat
peoplecansaytorationalize
tothemselvesandmakeitokay
withtheirownmoralcompass.
-Willieknewheneededtocut
theseguysloose.
-Therearesomepeople
whowerespared,whogotaway.
WhatdidGretzlersay
aboutthatdecision
tosparethem?
-IbelieveWillieletherlive
becausehehad
sexualrelationship.
Imean,itwasobviouslyrape.
Andhowevermuch
shegrittedherteeth,
shefollowedeverymove
hewantedhertodo.
-DougandWillie
headbacktoArizona.
-AftertheykilledKen
andMike,
overthenextfivedays,
theywouldkill
threemorepeople.
-Talktome
aboutBobandYahfah.
Whenhearticulated
thosedetailstoyou,
howdiditmakeyoufeel?
-WilliestartssayingtoDoug,
youknow,Bob's
reallymakingmeuncomfortable.
Heknowssomething.
AndthenWilliesaid,
youdoBob,butnoguns.
Andhedidit
becauseWillietoldhimto.
Dougwentinside.
Helookedaround,
andhesawawhitelamp,
andherippedout
theelectricalcord.
Bob'slegsbeganflailingout,
asanybody'swould,kicking,
andhekickedWillie
inhisnuts,
andthatmadeDouglaugh.
-Madehimlaugh,yousaid?
-Yes.
-He'stalkingaboutamoment
oflevityforhim
asamanisdying.
-Becausehewasn'tthere.
Theydidn'thaveaplan.
-EverytimeIaskyou
aquestionabouthowyoufeel,
aboutyouremotions,youhave
thisjournalisticveneerup
whereyou'regoingintodetails
aboutthecrimesthatweknow.
-No,Iunderstand.
Itiscomplicated
becausethey'rekilling
andtheydon'tevenknow
whythey'rekilling.
Willieisholdingthegun
andshootsYahfah
inthebackofherhead.
Everytimewewouldtalk
aboutstufflikethat,
Iwouldjustbedisgusted.
Icouldn'tsittherein
themiddleofhearingallthis
andthensaytohim,
youmother----er,you'recrazy.
Whywouldyoudothis?
-Idon'tthinkanything
affectedDouganymore.
Youkillone,
youkilltwo,youkillten.
Idon'tthink
hegaveitmuchthought.
-Afewdayslater,police
foundBobandYahfah'sbodies
andinvestigatedtheirmurders.
Witnessesidentified
WillieandDoug,
andwarrantswerefinally
issuedfortheirarrest.
ThemoreIlearn
aboutthemurders,
itreallypushedmeintogoing
inadifferentdirection
withGretzler.
-Bynow,
GretzlerandIhavebeen
intouchforawhile.
Thererarelywentaweek
wherewehadn'texchanged
twoorthreeortentapes
orletters.
AndthenIwouldgo
visithim,too--
Iwouldsaytwiceamonth.
AndIfeltreallycomfortable
inspeakingaboutanything.
-Andsonowweweregoinginto
himbeingtoldbyhisfather
thathewasn'tpart
ofthefamily
andneverhadbeen.
DougandIhad
alotofsimilarities
interms
ofhowwewererejected
overandoveragain
byourparents.
Andwheneverwetalked
aboutbothofourpasts,
wekindofhad
thisunconditionalconnection.
-Hesaid,
I'venevertoldanybody
aboutthesethingsbefore.
Isaid,tellmemore.
-Youdon'tfeelspecial
inprison.
Butawomanwhodayafterday,
hourafterhour,
poursallthiseffortandwork
intocommunicatingwithyou
andneedingtoknow
theinneryou,
thatwouldmatteralot.
-EventuallyIsaid,look,
whatyourfatherdid
washorrible.
Hewasaterriblefather.
Butopenyour----ingeyes.
Lookinthemirror.
Thisdidn'thappeninavacuum.
You'vegottotake
someresponsibilityhere.
-Thereissomething
veryfreeing
abouttalking
onataperecorder.
Idrewhimout.
Imadehimfeelsafe.
Andthemorewedidthat,
themoreIcouldn'twait
togethomefromwork.
I'dbelike,oh,wait,
didIgetapackagetoday?
-Laurabelieved,
byaskingquestions
thatweredeeperanddeeper,
thatshewasgainingtrust
andshewasgivingtrust
bysharingback.
Andsoitreallycreates
thisillusionoftrueintimacy.
-Eventually...
Ithought
abouthimallthetime.
Atthatpoint,
IwaslivingwithDick.
SoIwouldgointo
thebathroom,lockthedoor...
Fillupthebathtub...
andIwouldlisten
tohimtalktomeaboutmurder.
-Dickcouldn'tstandGretzler.
Andthensoonhestarted
visitingGretzler.
-Dickwentwithyou?
-Oh,oh,hell,yeah,hedid.
-Tosee
whathiscompetitionwas?
-EventuallyDougtoldme
thathewasinlovewithme.
-Heusedthewords"inlove"
veryspecifically.
Iwashisbestfriend
intheworld
andpossiblyhisonlyfriend.
Butitdidallowmetosort
ofbecomehisdefactoshrink.
-IfDougreallylovedLaura,
hewouldn'texactlywanther
tothrowawaytenyears
listeningtotapes
inherbathtub.
-Whenyoulookatthesephotos
ofwhathedid...
-Yeah.
-Doesit...
fightagainstsomeofthegood
feelingsyouhaveforhim?
-Yeah,alittlebit,attimes.
-Iwoulddescribe
myaunt'srelationshiptohim
asdeeplycomplicated
andinappropriately
intertwined.
-Ijustfeltwewereina...
differentkindofrelationship,
onethatwasactually,
insomeways,
waymoreimportant
thanmyromanticones,
whichIhavebeen
adismalfailureat.
Iblurlines
ineveryrelationship
I'veeverhad.
Nobodyinlawenforcement
knewanything
aboutWillieandDoug'sspree,
andnobodyknewwhotheywere.
-WillieandDoug
werenotgonnastop.
-WhenIfirstheard
abouttheSandbergs,
Iwasactuallyworking
ontheGilbertSierracase.
Mr.Sandberg
waswashinghiscar...
rightthere.
AndSteelmanandGretzler
weredesperately
inneedofacar,
because
criminalrulenumberone
isgetoutoftheneighborhood.
[dramaticmusic]
-Intheapartment,they
encounteredPatriciaSandberg,
MichaelSandberg'swife.
Andtheytookboth
ofthemhostage,
andtheywaited
untilthesunwasgoingdown.
-TheSandbergmurders--
thosefeltdifferent
thantherest.
-Oh,theyweredifferent.
Theywerelikebad,
horribletiming,
andtheydideverything
thatSteelmanandGretzler
askedthemtodo.
AndIevenaskedGretzler,
Isaid,
iftheyhadbegged
fortheirlives,
wouldyouhavesparedthem?
Andhesaid,Ithinkthere
wouldhavebeenagoodchance
thatwewouldhave.
SoIaskedhim,whywould
youkillforsomeoneelse?
Whywouldyoufollow
someoneelse?
Whywouldyougiveup
yourfreedom?
-Idon'tunderstand
whyafteralltheseyears,
they'restillchatting.
Idon'tseehowyoucanlook
ataguythatkilled17people
andbelike,
eh,he'sallright.
Initially,
thestorywasthething
thatkepthergoingback,
andthenthehumanelement
tookoveratsomepoint.
-Abouttwo,three,
fouryearsin,
Dougfrequently
wouldaskmeforthings
thatwouldremindhimofme.
-Anotheronewas,
pleasesendhimpicturesofme
inabathingsuit.
Yeah,sure.
Icalledhim
theromanticserialkiller,
jokingly,becausehehad
aromanticstreak
thatwasinsane.
-Weweredeeplyconcerned
aboutthis.
I'mnotsure
howtransparentshewas,
evenwithmyfamily.
Itwassomethingthatmymom
didn'twanttotalkabout.
-Whileinprison,
Doughadstayedoutoftrouble,
andsohewasallowed
togetakeyboard.
[keyboardmelodyplaying]
Hewouldsendmelotsofmusic.
Hetookcassettes,like,
thatwewouldtapeon,
andhewould,
withwireandcards,
likeadeckofcards,
hewouldcutout...
KamaSutrapositions.
[laughs]
You'dblowonthis,
andthentheywouldallmove.
Hemademedifferentkinds.
Dougwasveryimaginative.
Afterthat,Iknew
hewantedsomethingback.
Evenifhedidn'taskforit,
hewantedit,
andIcouldn't.
HeknewIwasinvolved
withDick,
buthealsoknew
thatDicktreatedmeterribly.
Dickwasabadalcoholic,
andhewasstruggling.
-Andhewouldsay,look
athowsh---yhetreatsyou.
AndI'mthinking,oh,myGod,
youkilled17people,
andyou'reaskingme
howIcouldbe
withaboyfriend
becausehe'scranky?
ButDickandIbrokeup.
Wehadbrokenupinawaythat
wewereneverreallybrokenup.
Butlifechangedagain,
andImetKevin.
Dickwasagrown-up.
Kevinwasnotagrown-up.
ButIsawsomething
inKevinalso
thatIsawinmyself.
-WhenIfirstmetLaura,
Iwasworkingasachef
inagrocerystoreinPhoenix.
Andourfirstdate,
Iopenedupherrefrigerator,
andallofmyfoodwas
inherrefrigerator,uneaten.
Andshewouldcomein
andbuyitjusttoseeme.
-Isurethinkhelooks
alotlikeGretzler.
[chuckles]
ItoldKevinthat,
andhedoesn'tseeit.
-Idon'tthink
DouglasGretzler
isaveryattractiveman.
No,uh-uh.
-ItoldDougImetthisguy,
andGretzler
wasreallynothappy.
TenyearsaftermeetingKevin,
heproposed.
-Theoneperson
thatDoughated--
hated--wasKevin.
Therewasalittlebit
ofironythere,too--
theserialkillertellingme
IshouldgetawayfromKevin.
[dramaticmusic]
By1997,
DougandIhadexchanged
about300and400
audiocassettetapes.
IwentandvisitedDoug
200to350times
in10years.
-Whatwasthefascination
ofsitting
inaprivateroomwithhim?
-Becauseit'sneverenough
formetojustgethalfway.
Iwantedtoget
everylittlemorsel.
It'snotjustgonnabeatape.
It'snotjustgonnabe
aletter.
WhenI'msittingthere
andhecansmellmeupclose,
becausethisisamanwho's
beendeprived
forabout15years
ofanykindofhumancontact.
-Weknowtheyspent
physicaltimetogether,
andshesaidthose
lastedhours.
Whathappenedduring
thosemeetups?
Idon'tknow.
-Oneparticulartime
Iwentuptoseehim.
Andwhenwewere
rightoutsidetheroom,
heliftsmeup,and...
hekissesmeandstuck
histongueinmymouth.
AndIsaid,(BLEEP)you!
[chuckles]
Icouldseeheworkedhimself
uptodothat.
Hewasscared.
Andhesaid,Ishouldhavedone
thatalongtimeago.
-Wewentthroughalot
ofdifferentexperiences
emotionally
inthosetenyears.
Whatevermydeep
andabidingfriendship
withDouglasGretzlerwas,
thebestpartofitwas,
itdidn'thavealabel.
-AftertheSandbergs,
WilliehadbeentellingDoug,
weneedsomemoney,
andIknowwherewecangetit.
-Theyheaded
toWillie'sstompinggrounds...
Lodi.
-Thethingthatforme
defieslogicis,
Idon'tknowhowsomeone
couldtellyou
thegraphicdetails
ofcrimeslikethis
andyou'dwanttocontinue
formingahumanconnection.
TheLodimurderscometomind.
-MynameisJackEarl,
andmyauntandmyuncle
andmycousins
weremurdered
intheautumnof1973--
Richard,Wanda,Debbie,
andRickyEarl.
OnNovember6th,
WillieandDoug
hadarrivedinLodi,
andWilliehadtoldDoug
hewasgonnaripoff
theUnitedMarket.
Williehadbeenthere
manytimesbefore.
Theyweregonnabustin
rightatclosingtime.
Well,whentheypulled
intotheparkinglot
andthere'snolights
oninthemarket,
Williesaid,noproblem.
Iknowwheretheguylives.
WallyParkinwas
thebest-knownguyinLodi.
Wally,along
withhiswife,Joanne,
ownedtheUnitedMarket.
Thatnight,
Wallyhadleaguebowling.
So,desperateforababysitter,
hecalledDebbieEarl.
-TheEarlfamilywerejust
thefamilydownthestreet,
friendsoftheParkins.
-Debbiehadtoldhimearlier,
Ican'tbabysitanymore.
I'vegothomework.
Butshecouldn'tsayno.
Debbie'sdadbroughtherdown,
alongwithRicky,herbrother.
MycousinDebbie
wasjustthesweetest.
AndthenCousinRick--
hewastheonlykidIknew
wholovedtohunt
androller-skate.
[clearsthroat]
[breathesdeeply]
Itstillhurts.
Aroundabout8:00...
WillieandDougpulled
intotheParkinresidence.
Theygetout,
walkuptothefrontdoor.
Sheisnoticeably
alittlenervous,
andWilliesays,
hey,isWallyhome?
Iowehimsomemoney.
AndDebsaysno,
andtheyturnaround
andwalkbacktothecar.
-DebbieEarldidn'tlike
thelooksoftheseguys,
soshewentandcalled
herfather,RichardEarl,
who'srightdowntheroad.
-Richardtoldhiswife
hewasgonnagocheckon--
seewhathadhappened
and,ifhewasn'tback
shortlyafter,
tocallthepolice.
-Alittlebitlater,new
headlightspullupthedrive.
It'smyuncleRichard.
Hewalksin,
andWillieputsagun
atthebackofmyuncle'shead.
Hesaid,Itoldmywife,
ifI'mnotbackinacouple
minutes,callthesheriff.
Williedidn'tblink.
Williesaid,we'llgogether.
-WilliegivesDoug
thesix-shotandsays,
killthemallifI'mnotback
intenminutes.
-Steelmanleft,andheleft
Gretzlertherebyhimself.
Whydidn'tGretzler
justleavethehouse?
Whydidhegothroughwithit?
-Atthatparticularpoint,
he'stooscared.
Hesaid,doyouknow
howmanymurders
wehadcommittedalready?
Therewasnorunningfromthis.
-Atacertainpoint,
hewaspotcommitted.
-WillieandmyuncleRichard
hopinRichard'scar.
-Hedrivesdowntheroad,
whichislessthanaquarter
ofamile,getshiswife.
-Williewithagun
onherhusband'sneck,
andWandaisnowpart
ofthisscene.
-Andsonowyouhave
twowholefamilies.
They'rewaitingnow
forWallyandJoanneParkin,
whoareatthebowlingalley.
-Williemakesthisbigscene.
Don'teventhink
aboutmakingarunforit.
Bynow,MarkLangshowsup.
DebbieandMarkwereengaged.
MarkwasgonnapickDebbieup
afterbabysitting,
andhenowisonthescene,
tryingtocomforthisfiance
andcalmeverybodydown.
Butprettysoon,
WallyandJoannewalkin.
Andgunsarepointedatthem.
ButWilliesays,allwewant
todoisgetthemoney.
WilliedecidestotakeWally
downtothemarket.
-Dougdescribesfeeling
thathehadtodo
whatWilliesaid.
Clearly,therewassomething
aboutbeingcontrolled
byWillie
thatwasappealingtoDoug.
-WhileWillieandWally
weregone,
Dougisnowincharge,
andDoug'styingeverybodyup.
Ican'timaginethescene,
buttheysubmit.
-Thesevictimsclearlyknew
whatwashappening,
andtheirterror
andtheirsquirmingaround
mayhavebeentitillating
-Backatthemarket...
-Laterthatnighttheycounted
outafewthousanddollars,
byfarthemostmoneytheyhad
gotteninanyoftheirrips.
-WillieandDoug
hadtheirmoney,
andtherewereninepeople
inthathouse,
includingtwochildren.
Everybody'stiedup.
-[sighs]Dougcouldhavesaid,
ah,I'mdone.
Buthedidn't.
Willietapshim
ontheshoulder...
Pointedtothekidsinthebed.
Dougtookthegun.
-Ifyouweretosortofthink
about,like,
theworstpossiblecrimes
youcouldcommit,
itwouldbekillingkids,
whichishorrifying
toevensay.
Andshewasable,somehow,
tolookbeyondthat.
-Afterthat...
Theyjustwentinorder.
Richard,Wally,Joanne,Wanda,
Debbie,Rick,Mark.
-ItoldDoug,
you----ingmurdered
sevenpeople,
andyoumurdered
twochildrenfirst.
Youhadtohaveknown
thatthoseparents
heardtheirkidsbeingkilled.
Imean,whatiswrongwithyou?
Youhaveachildofyourown.
Hewouldgetveryquiet.
-You'retryingtoput
areasonableexplanation
tothemostunreasonableacts.
Theygrabbedthebag,got
intheDatsun,andtookoff.
[dramaticmusic]
-Thenextday,
WillieandGretzler
movedtoahotel
indowntownSacramento
calledtheClunieHotel,
kindofafleabaghotel.
Thesheriff
ofSanJoaquinCounty
waslookingforclues.
-Thesheriffspoke
withtheheadoftheFBI,
ClarenceKelley,
andsaid,we'vejusthad,
youknow,ninemurderedhere.
-Andhesaid,
well,wedohaveawarrant
that'sbeenissuedinArizona
foracoupleofguys
formurderingsomepeople
inamobilehome.
Andoneofthem
isfromyourarea,
WillieLutherSteelman.
Thesheriff'sofficewas
familiarwithWillieSteelman
becausehehadbeeninvolved
insomepettycrimes.
Sonowthey'vegotasuspect.
TheclerkattheClunieHotel
sawSteelman'spicture,
recognizedhim,
andcalledthecops.
-Withinmoments,thepolice
hadtheCluniesurrounded.
-WhenDougandIwouldtalk
aboutafterhewasarrested,
he'dalwayspathimself
onthebackforsaying,
I'veseenenoughkilling.
AndI'dsay,
Jesus----ingChrist,Doug,
youdidenoughkilling.
Itwasn'tthatyousaw
enoughkilling.
Youdidenoughkilling.
-Tosay
I'veseenenoughkilling
isapassiverecalling
ofactionsthatyoudid,
anditisawaytodistance
andnotown
whatyoudid.
-Dougwastednotime
inturningonWillieSteelman.
-Withinminutes,
Gretzlerledpolice
toanapartment
aboutamileaway,
whereSteelmanhadtakenrefuge
inthehomeofagirlfriend.
Inthatwhitehouse
backthere,
WillieSteelman,thesecond
suspectinthismassmurder,
istrapped.
Policehavesurrounded
thehouse.
-Eventually
Williesteppedout.
-AfterDougandWillie
werearrested,
Dougconfessed
toallthemurders.
-TheSanJoaquinCounty
Sheriff
saysDouglasGretzler
andWillieSteelman
gaveinformationthatled
totheeightothervictims
inArizonaandCalifornia.
-Whentheyfoundhim,
Iwas12.
AndIthought,
Dougwasnotthatperson.
Ineversawhimgetinafight.
Hewasnevermean.
Icouldn'tbelieveit.
Howcouldmybrother
havedonethat?
-Afterheconfessed,
hejustshutdown.
Forthenext12years,
nobodyheardfromhimagain.
Hedidn'tgiveinterviews,
andDougtoldme
thathehadn'thad
asinglevisitoruntilme.
Andhetoldmewhenhewas
arrested,hewasveryempty,
andhecouldn'tevenmakesense
ofwhyhedidanyofthis.
-Therewasnodeathpenalty
inCalifornia
atthetime
oftheLodikillings.
Andsotheauthorities
wantedtosendthem
toArizona...
becauseArizona
hadadeathpenalty.
-Childrenlearn
amoralcompass,
andtheylearnempathyearly.
Thereissomeinnateempathy,
buttheparentandtheculture
they'reliving--
thatallshouldreinforce
andteachthat.
Thisisnotwhathappened.
Theproblemis,bythetime
someoneisanadult
whoreallyhasantisocial
personalitydisorder,
it'snotterriblytreatable.
-SteelmanandGretzler
wereextraditedtoArizona
tofacecharges
intheSandbergcase
butnottheSierracase,
becausetheevidence
intheSandbergcase
wasstronger.
Whenitwasallover,
bothSteelmanandGretzler
wereconvictedinArizona,
andtheywerebothsentenced
todeath.
-In1977,
fouryears
afterDougwasarrested,
IwenttovisitDouginprison.
Hewouldtellmeabouthow
hedreamedofescaping.
AndIjustremembercomingout
fromthereandthinking,
heneedstobewhereheis.
Mydadbelieved
inthedeathpenalty,
andIthinkhefelt
thatitwasjustifiedforDoug,
eventhoughDougwashisson.
[dramaticmusic]
-Theonlyway
Gretzlersortoffoundhimself
andfoundhis--
I'llusetheword"remorse,"
butit'snotthecorrectword.
Hisutterhatredatwhathedid
waswhenhemet
hisgrandchildren,
andhesaid,
Ineedtobe----ingdead.
Hesaid,Ican'tbelieve
Ikilledtwoinnocentchildren
thesameageasthem.
Youknow,whenyou'refaced
withsomething,
it'sverydifferent.
-Itpersonalized
whathe'ddone.
-Exactly,yeah.
-Itwas
aten-yeartherapysession.
-ThepersonImetin1988
wasremovedfromhisownself.
Astimemovedon,
everythingchanged.
Hehadvolumeand...
opinions,
andallofasudden,
ourfeelingsweregoing
backandforthand...
fullyhonest.
-Idon'tthinkhedeserved
tobeoutofprison,
butdoIbelievehechanged?
Absolutely.
WhateverpartIplayedin...
hispersonalredemptionstory,
everybodyheldit
againstme,too.
Iwasabsolutelyputdown,
stompedonemotionally
forhavinganything
todowithhim.
Iwenttothepostoffice
tomailalettertoDoug,
andthepost-officeguy
tookhisscissors
andstartedjabbingme.
Andhesaid,doyouknow
whoyou'rewritingto?
Doyouknowwhathedid?
AndIsaid,yeah,Ido.
-Iwasappointed
torepresenthim.
Thesystemaffords
peoplesentencedtodeath
anumberofdifferentappeals.
-Itwasduringhisfinalplea
infederalcourt
whenGretzlerfinallytold
hisappealsattorneys,
hey,I'vehadenough.
We'redone.
WhenIfirstmetLaura,
Iwasblownawaythatshehad
alltheserecordings
ofDougGretzler.
-JackandImet
throughWeaver
inearly1992.
JackandIstartedtoforge
afriendship.
-Throughoutyourconnection
withGretzler,
youwerealsodeveloping
arapport
withthevictims'families.
-Isawitasgiving
thestoryvolume.
Ididn'tseeitasjournalism.
Isawitas,
whowerethesepeople
thatI'vebeenreadingabout
inpolicereports?
Iwantedtohumanizethem.
-Shehad
aclosepersonalrelationship
withaguythatputbullets
inmyfamily'shead.
Ididn'tknowifIwassupposed
tobemadather,
buteventually
Iwasinvitedtotheprison
whereGretzlerwasstillhoused
ondeathrow.
Iwasimmediatelyonaquest.
Ihadtolearneverything
aboutwhathadhappened.
[breathesdeeply]
So...
afewdayslater,
Iarriveattheprison.
AndDougwasgetting
very,verynervous.
Andhesaid,
haveyoueverthrown
apebbleinapond?
Yeah,sure.
Says,youseethoseripples?
Theyjustgoandgoandgo.
That'smyproblem.
Ican'tcometoterms
withtheripples.
Ihavenoidea
howmanypeopleI'veaffected
bywhatI'vedone.
Andhewasright.
Ithoughtthatwas
themosthoneststatement
apersoncouldhavemade.
Laurahadnoproblem
callinghimonhisactions.
Imean,
she'stheonethatsaid,
don'tyouhaveaconscience?
AndDougapparentlysaid,
Idon'tknow.
Howdoyougetone?
AndIthinkthatconversation
allowedDoug
tofindhisconscience.
-Hehadtoarrive
atalotofthese
emotionaldepartures,
onsomelevel,
fromthewayheusedtothink.
Itwasn'tuntilherealized
thathehadthecapacity
toactuallylovesomeone,
eventhoughhehaddonethese
horrific,horrificcrimes
andheknewthem.
-Sohislovetowardsyou
unlockedhiscapacity
forremorse,
orhoweveryouwant
todefineit.
-Yeah,yeah.
-Wereyoucognizantat
thetimethatyouhadprompted
thisserialkiller
tofeelanykindofway
aboutwhathe'ddone?
-Iwasjustlike,oh,
sowearereallyallcreatures
ofhowwe'retreated
bypeoplewholoveus.
-He'sright.
Hewasdeeplysorry
forwhathehaddone.
Healsoknew
thattherewasnothing
hecoulddotochangeit.
In1991,Ireachedout
tohissisterDee,
andIsaid,youknow,
he'sgothisrightmindback.
You'rewelcometocome.
-Bythispoint,
15yearshadpassed.
WhenIwenttovisit,
Dougapologized
forallthemess
thatcameabout
fromhisactions.
-Historically,
theoddsareincrediblylow,
withantisocialpersonality
disorder,tochange.
And,really,prisonisamatter
ofkeepingsocietysafe
fromsomebodywhoprobably
isn'tgoingtobeable
tomakechanges.
-Icameaway...
firstoff,withthepower
offorgiveness.
IhadforgivenDougGretzler.
Ijustcouldn'tcarry
thatburdenaroundanymore.
Forgiveness
isapowerfulthing,and...
Ididn'tknowthatuntilI...
forgavesomebody,youknow?
-Dougcuthimselfoff
sodeeply,
butLaurapushedhim
tolookathimself.
She'sobsessive,
butIalsothink
thatshe'slikeabridge.
Youknow,thatshecouldbe
friendswithamurderer,
friendswith
themurderer'sfamily,
andconnect
withvictims'familiesaswell.
It'sprettyremarkable.
-Attheendoftheday,
17peopledied.
It'sheinous,it'srepulsive,
it'sgruesome,
andhe'ssmartenough
toknow,aswealldo,
thatthisisanatrocity.
Tenyearsisalongtime
totalktosomebody
ondeathrow.
-Therewasnosingleday
inthelastsixmonths
ofhislife
thatIwasnotconsumed
bynotjustGretzler
buttheGretzlerfamily
andtheimpendingexecution.
-Itcamecertifiedmail,
yeah,theinvitation,so...
"Youhavebeenselected
"byinmate
DouglasEdwardGretzler
"tobeinvitedtowitness
hisexecution
"attheArizona
StatePrisonComplex
"inFlorence,Arizona,
atapproximately3:00p.m.
onJune3,1998."
Hereallywantedme
togotohisexecution.
Hesaid,Ijustwantyou
tobethelastthingIsee.
[voicebreaking]
Thatmakesmecry.
-Outofeveryonehelists...
-Mm-hmm.
-You'rethefirst.
-[sniffles]
Itjustfeltlike
anawesomeresponsibility.
-Oneofthelasttimes
IsawDoug,
hewasinthedeathhouse.
Thatwasprobablythebesttime
Ieverhadwithhim.
Hewassinging
anurseryrhymeabout,
haveyoueverput
yourchewinggum
onthebedpostatnight?
Isaid,Ineverevenheard
ofthat.
-Doesthespearmint
loseitsflavor
Onthebedpostovernight...
-Towardstheveryend,
hegotquiet,
andIrememberstaringathim.
-Can'tyousee
I'mgoingcrazy?
Won'tsomebody
putmeright?
-Hewasgettingyounger.
Itwasthestrangestsensation
Ieverhad.
Hisfaceismelting
andyoungerandyounger
andyounger...
-Idon'tknow
whattodo...
-Tobeforehehadeverharmed
anybodyoranything.
-Itwasagruesome
murderspree--17deaths.
2menaretoblame,
andtomorrowoneofthosemen
willdieforhiscrimes.
-Laurasaid,
yougottobethere.
He'sexpectingyou.
-LauraandIwent
totheexecution.
Itwaslikegoingtoatheater,
becausetherewas
thiswallofglass
andthenthecurtainsopened.
[sombermusic]
Andhelayonagurney,
strappeddown.
-TotherightwasJackEarl,
andDeehadherhands
onmyshoulder.
-Andhelooked
atLauraandme.
Eventuallyhiseyesclosed.
AndIjustrememberhislips
hadsoftened,just...
[trillslips]
Thatfinalbreath.
And...
thenhewasgone.
-Ijustfelt
really,reallysad.
Ilaidinmybed,
andIwatched
about100"Law&Orders,"
andIateasmuchjunkfood
asIcouldforaboutamonth.
Aftertheexecution,
aboutacoupleweekslater,
themailcame.
Andinitwasabox,
aprettybigbox,
anditweighedprobably
aboutthreepounds.
Thisis...
[dramaticmusic]
Doug'sashes.
I'mreallyglad
thatIdidn'tlisten
topeoplewhotoldme,
you'reanut,you'recrazy,
andthatItookachance
onDoug.
Ihadtogopickup
allofhisthings--
PertPlus,ayellowsoapdish.
Thisisnowhowold,
27yearsold?
-Asmyauntdeveloped
thisconnectionwithGretzler,
shealsospiderwebbed
thatcommunication
outtomassivetree
ofpeople
involvedinthisstory.
AndIthinkmany
haveverycomplicatedfeelings
abouther
becauseofherlevelofaccess
thatshewasabletoultimately
developwithGretzler.
-Dougdid
veryhorriblethings.
Butitwastheveryseriousness
ofwhathedid
thatinterestedme.
Ifhehadrobbed
aliquorstore,
wewouldnothavespent
tenyearstalking.
Thislookslikehair.
Hehasverynicehair, actually.
Oneofthemostimportant
thingsforme
wastowriteabook
aboutmyexperience,
notjustthespree,
notjustthevisits
buttherelationship
betweenGretzlerandI.
-She'sbeenwritingabook
aboutthisforfourdecades.
Idon'tthinkthisstory
isevergonnabedoneforher.
Youthink
you'regonnafinishit?
-DoIthinkIwillfinishit?
IfIwantto.
WheneverIwouldsitdown
totrytowritethisstory,
Ijust--
Iwaslike,it'stoobig.
Ididn'tknow
howtogettherightwordsout.
Andthentwoyearsago,
Isatdown,andIsaid,
IknowDougwouldwantme
togofinish.
I'mreallyclosetotheend,
andIhaven'tstopped.
But,damn,
it'sthehardestthing
I'veeverdoneinmylife.
-Myauntiscompletely
codependentwiththisstory.
Ithasconsumed
hermentalenergy,
herphysicalhouse.
Ithinkthere's,
inmanyways,afear
ofthisstoryending,
becausewhat'snext?
Whatisclosureonthistoyou?
-Ihavenoidea.
-Weallhaveblindspots
ashumanbeings,
andmyaunt
isacomplicatedperson.