Famous Last Words (2025) s01e03 Episode Script

[solemn music playing]
[interviewer] Imagine
if we had the opportunity
to hear from a cultural icon
after they've passed away.
A chance for them
to shape their own legacy,
to be heard one last time
in their own words.
Gloria Steinem was a trailblazing pioneer
in the fight for women's rights.
She was a writer, a lecturer,
a magazine editor,
and a political activist.
All of us must stand up together
and say, "No more."
[audience member cheering]
[interviewer] She was the first woman
to speak at the National Press Club.
She co-founded New York Magazine
and Ms. Magazine,
the first national publication by women,
for women, and controlled by women.
She helped launch some
of the most influential women's groups
of the past century.
We will continue our fight
until every woman has the right
to decide for herself
whether or not
and when to have an abortion.
[interviewer] She was a committed friend
and mentor to women across generations.
She was a road warrior
and a proud Manhattanite
who believed
laughter was the ultimate freedom.
For more than five decades,
she was the most enduring
and recognizable name
in the women's movement.
We are the women
that our parents warned us about,
and we are proud.
[crowd cheering, whooping]
[interviewer] With her passing,
the world has lost
one of the most important women
of the century
in the fight for equality.
Before she died, Gloria Steinem sat down
for a deeply meaningful conversation,
knowing that what you're about to see
would not air until after she passed away,
even if that meant
locking away the footage for years.
These are
Gloria Steinem's famous last words.
There's just a little lip there.
-[Gloria] Yeah. Thank you.
-[interviewer] So you just wanna…
And we're gonna go around back this way.
-Okay.
-And there'll be a step.
-I'll help you up the step.
-Okay, thanks.
Do you mind being helped,
or you don't like it?
No, it's good, good.
-Nice to be helped.
-[both chuckle]
All right, little one. There you go. One.
Okay, one more.
You're gonna go to the seat over there.
-Great.
-Okay, great. Thank you.
You made it. How's the temp in here
for you? Temperature?
-[Gloria] Mm-hmm.
-It's okay?
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, thank you.
So here we are in this special set.
As you can see,
there's nobody here but us.
There are five cameras, all operated
from some other room somewhere,
which I haven't seen.
So they are filming us,
but they can't hear us.
-Only we can hear what's said in here.
-Mm.
So we can have a very private
and very honest conversation.
Except we're being recorded.
-We're being recorded, but no one's--
-[laughs] A little thing like that.
A little thing like that.
It's… it's… Yes, it's private for now.
[Gloria chuckling]
All right, so let me introduce you
with this bio.
Uh, Gloria Marie Steinem.
You were born March 25, 1934,
in Toledo, Ohio.
Your mother,
Ruth Louisa Nuneviller Steinem,
was a trailblazing newspaper reporter
and editor.
Your father, Leo Steinem,
was the son of a suffragette.
He worked as a traveling antique dealer
and ran a dance hall in the summers.
Your sister, Susanne,
was nine years your senior,
and you followed in her footsteps
to Smith College.
You married once to David Bale
when you were 66 years old,
and you shared almost four years together
before he passed away.
Uh, you were a writer, a lecturer,
a magazine editor, a political activist,
and for the past 50-plus years, you were
the face of the feminist movement.
I hope I wasn't
the face of the feminist movement.
-You don't think you were?
-Because-- No, because it's not right.
Because it's a diverse movement,
and actually,
on the issues in public opinion polls,
women of color are more likely
to support the issues than white women.
Why do you think you were the one
that is the well-known name
of all of them?
Uh… Well, it has more to do with endurance
than at that moment,
because I've just lasted longer,
uh, because… I've stayed at it longer.
I mean, all my other speaking partners
had children
or had another career
or did it for a period of time,
but not as long a time as I have.
Uh, you co-founded New York Magazine
and Ms. Magazine,
which changed the course
of the abortion rights movement
and is still in publication.
You played a pivotal role in launching
some of the most influential
women's groups of the past century.
You are a pioneer
of the feminist movement,
and when this is broadcast,
that will all be over.
[laughing]
-It's good we can laugh about it.
-Yeah!
How does it feel to think about that,
about, uh, about your own passing
and about the arc of your life ending
and all of that?
Well, it feels sad
only because I'm so interested…
[chuckling] …in what's going on.
Right.
I looked up to find
the oldest woman in the world,
and I found one in the Himalayas
who says she's 135,
so I have a goal.
Amazing. So when I asked
what would you like to talk about today,
one thing you said
was the current state of affairs.
And I thought about that, and I thought
the fight you picked has no finish line.
When Roe v. Wade is suddenly overturned
and it's not the law anymore,
what do you think about
the state of the fight right now?
Well, I get angry or disappointed
and so on,
but I don't lose all hope in the future.
Where I'm still living here in Manhattan,
on the corner of my block,
there was a medical building
that had an abortion clinic in it,
and I used to see the women driving up
from other states in old, battered cars
and going in and coming out
and getting a bottle of champagne
to celebrate it in the neighborhood.
And so…
But now it's still, um,
socially disapproved of by many,
so some women are still struggling.
Does that get to the fundamental core
of what feminism is,
about control and about women having
equality to have control over themselves?
Yeah, well, it… it's…
um, Patriarchy 101… [chuckles]
…Racism 101.
-Right.
-Class.
These things restrict
the unique individual.
I mean, you're unique.
There'll never be another person like you.
-You get to be who you…
-I hope not.
[Gloria laughs] Right.
And we're still struggling.
There's still religious restrictions
that many people feel.
Uh… there's, I'm sorry to say,
race and class restrictions.
We have, right as we speak,
Trump… [chuckling] …in the White House.
So we have no shortage
of things we need to do
in order to be compassionate
toward each other.
Is that what you think,
at the end of the day, is the secret,
is that as soon as we feel compassion
for each other,
then people are more likely
to treat each other…
It helps a lot. It helps a lot.
I was thinking about your upbringing,
and how in the summers,
your dad had a concert hall, dance hall…
-It was a dance hall.
-A dance hall.
"Dancing over the water
and under the stars,"
that was his slogan, right, right, right.
And so in the summers,
you had a place that was settled.
And when the summer ended,
you were off on the road again.
Mm-hmm. My father hated the cold weather,
so he would put us in a house trailer,
and we would go to Florida and California.
It wasn't as if I was going to school
in a regular way. I wasn't.
So your mother was
an accomplished journalist,
and then she stopped
to help… to work with your dad,
and it destroyed her,
maybe is the word to use.
No, and it was very difficult. Um…
She was a journalist for the Toledo Blade,
as you point out,
and then trying to do it all,
and being the wife of a kind and wonderful
but profoundly irresponsible man
was just too much.
And she had what was then called
"a nervous breakdown,"
and she spent, uh, a long time,
I think almost a year, in a sanatorium.
And after that,
she gave up her profession.
I remember she taught me how to fold
a piece of typing paper in four
so you could hold it in your hand
like a reporter's notebook,
which didn't exist at the time. [chuckles]
And she taught you that before you knew
that she had been a reporter.
You didn't find out
until much later in life.
-Mm-hmm. Right.
-So…
I mean, that's…
that's a real connection moment there,
when you didn't realize
when you were a kid what she was doing.
-Mm-hmm. No, that's true.
-Showing you the true part of herself.
[Gloria] And also…
No, the sense of loss
or an unrealized… talent or future
that we got from our mothers.
Maybe you did too. I mean…
Because we were living in…
we are still living in
something of a patriarchal culture.
So to see the sadness
and the wasted talent,
um, it was hard.
-Yeah.
-It was hard.
Do you think your mother could have been
a great woman in the world?
Did she have that intelligence
and that… and that sort of drive?
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Right.
It only struck me later
that I was following her dream.
[interviewer] Mm-hmm.
You know, she made the choices
she felt she had to make,
but it kind of destroyed her.
I mean, she became addicted
to what was an early tranquilizer,
sodium pentothal.
Wow.
Uh, which made you seem a little drunk
and, you know…
Were you embarrassed of her,
uh… uh, when she would be that way?
Um…
Well, by the time I was around
and taking care of her,
she was home all the time,
and I was looking after her.
So I didn't…
I knew she was regarded as the crazy lady
in the neighborhood a bit.
-[interviewer] Mm-hmm.
-Um… But it was just…
-She was somebody to be cared for.
-Right.
And I noticed that people who did that
frequently don't have children.
It's as if "been there, done that."
And, of course, it's not fair,
because being a small person
and looking after a big person
is nothing like having children.
But it does have an impact.
Do you think the impact is bigger,
your choice not to or the people's choice
not to, having had done that,
because taking care of someone is painful?
No, I… I think it's because you get
an unfair, uh…
picture of caretaking.
Because being a child
taking care of a grown-up
is nothing like the other way around.
-Yeah.
-But it does influence you, I think.
And so when did you realize
that you didn't wanna have children?
Well, I, uh… I kept assuming, I mean,
especially in that era of the '50s,
that everybody assumed they were going to…
we were going to get married
and have children
and live in a particular way.
But I just kept on not doing it.
-Right.
-But I feel happy with my life choices.
Another thing,
you talk about your dad with such…
uh. whimsy, you know?
You have… There's a certain smile
when you talk about him.
And at the same time,
he left you there at ten
with a woman he knew wasn't well.
Was there no resentment
towards your sister or your dad
about like, "Why am I stuck with this?"
Not… not really,
because my sister was
living in Washington, D.C.,
because she was working,
and she would come home on vacation.
And I think she also didn't realize
how incapacitated my mother had become.
And it… it was happening once
while she was there,
and it shocked her.
And that's part of what caused her
to find a residential hospital
where my mother could be treated
for her addiction to tranquilizers.
And my mother stayed there for two years,
and I went to live in Washington.
So she really rescued me.
[interviewer] Mm.
And also, I had an outlet
that not everybody had…
[clears throat]
…which was that I imagined
I was going to get out through dancing,
which is insane.
[chuckles] But anyway…
-Were you good? Or was it really insane?
-I wasn't that good. No, I don't think so.
[both laughing]
I realized
that I was not gonna become a Rockette.
[laughs]
[interviewer] Would you sit fantasizing,
picturing this life,
what you had, where it was, and…
No, it was kind of amorphous.
It was just getting out.
I mean, it wasn't as if I understood
what would happen.
And also,
because my sister had gone to college,
I knew in my head,
at least, intellectually,
though she was nine years older,
that I would go to college,
and that would get me out.
[interviewer] Right.
So you just graduated college,
and you're engaged
to the very debonair Blair,
who's nine years older than you.
-He was a pilot.
-Mm.
And there's some story about him
flying you to Connecticut
with a hand on the… on the yoke
and another cigarette here,
and I can imagine him
sort of looking over at you and smiling.
And I just…
This image of beautiful young Gloria
and handsome pilot Blair
smoking a cigarette
flying over the Connecticut woods
just feels pretty awesome.
Even the housemother in my dormitory
was totally knocked out with him.
[interviewer] So everyone was
swept off their feet by him.
Yes. He… he looked sort of like
a Kashmiri prince.
He had sort of a little bit darker skin
and green eyes.
And so… He was only Jewish, okay?
[both chuckling]
[chuckling] But… but he was
very dramatic looking.
And so then,
how did he ask you to marry him?
There was a kind of… I don't know
how much was assumption
and how much, you know,
but that after I graduated…
Well, I do remember
that his father gave me pots and pans.
This was a little scary.
[both chuckling]
Not encouraging.
And he also gave me
his mother's engagement ring.
-[interviewer] Wow.
-Which I gave back.
How'd you give it back
when you broke it off?
I think I left it under the pillow
and disappeared to India, right?
-[interviewer] Wow. Gangster.
-[both laugh]
And, um, you were together, and you were…
-This was late…?
-[Gloria] In '56.
-'56.
-[Gloria] Mm-hmm.
You were intimate with each other.
You were having a real relationship.
Was that unusual at the time?
This was before birth control pills.
Were your classmates also having
experiences like that?
I think a lot of them were, right. Yeah.
I've read about the birth control pill,
that it really shifted
the way a lot of relationships were, but--
But there were other methods
before the birth control pill. [laughs]
-But you did get pregnant.
-I did, yeah. Right, right, right.
Was he aware?
Did you tell him or you kept it from him?
I told him later,
but not at the time, yeah, right.
[interviewer] I imagine it would've been
scary to be pregnant
and maybe unsure if you're gonna be able
to get an abortion.
Are you worried
that he would try and make you keep it?
Well, I just…
I don't know exactly what I was thinking,
but that I…
It… it was not a good thing…
[chuckling] …to be single and pregnant.
Um…
I also had this crazy idea
that if I went to Paris,
Paris I thought of as a sin city
or something,
that I could find an abortion there,
not thinking that it was Catholic
and completely different.
I finally went to London
and went to a doctor
whose name I'd found in the phone book,
who was a wonderful, kind man,
uh, who directed me to a woman physician
to… to… to actually do the abortion
and who said to me,
"Do what you want to do with your life."
Wow. That must have been
a very, very stressful time for you.
-Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was.
-You know, desperate, almost.
And fortunately,
I was able to escape to London
and find a solution
and get to India and a different life.
But it was touch and go for a while.
Wow. And so you go to India for two years.
You travel all around
as this very independent young woman.
-And you're there to study Gandhi.
-Mm.
As you're studying Gandhi, you discover
something much deeper and more meaningful
that would lead to
lead to the rest of your life.
Yeah. So I was going around India
interviewing people
who had actually worked with him
and knew him.
And I remember
talking to Kamaladevi Chattopadhyay,
a wonderful woman, a great leader.
And we were sitting on her couch,
and she listened to me for a while,
and finally she said, "Well, my dear,
we taught him everything he knew."
-[interviewer] Hmm. [chuckles]
-[laughing]
Because… I mean,
there was a reason why he wore a dhoti
and did…
had a spinning wheel like a woman.
He… he… he was learning
from the women's movement.
Would you say you be…
you became a feminist in India?
I don't know, because the word
wouldn't have been the same.
-No, but knowing now what it is…
-Yeah.
…that that's where you had your awakening.
Yeah. No, I'd… I… I think so.
Because I kind of realized
that patriarchy was made up.
-Racism was made up.
-It was important for you to write about.
[Gloria] Yeah, absolutely.
I became a journalist.
I was always being
a freelance writer for Esquire,
for New York Magazine,
for That Was the Week That Was,
a television show,
for… for all kinds of things.
And I… I think because of my upbringing,
and also because
of my father's pattern of life,
I just couldn't imagine
getting up every morning
and going to the same office.
[interviewer] Right. So in 1963,
you get this big assignment
to go undercover as a Playboy Bunny.
Playboy had these Playboy Clubs
at the time,
where men would go, and there'd be women
dressed as Playboy Bunnies.
And so you went undercover
as one of the hostess waitresses for that.
Obviously, not every writer
could pull that undercover mission off.
No, and… and, uh,
it was, uh, for Show magazine,
where I was a contributing editor.
Did you get… You know, you read about,
you know, the, um,
the Donnie Brascos, you know,
getting caught up
in their undercover, you know, job,
and you get sort of…
You lose yourself a little.
Did you lose yourself a little
in that space?
I mean, I… I got to know
and got involved with…
[hesitates]… or felt involved
with the lives of the other women
who were working as Bunnies
because they were supporting their kids
or… it was a Black woman
who had to put up with being called
a "Chocolate Bunny."
[interviewer] That's what
they called them at the Play…
Oh wow. Okay. Did you stay in touch
with any of the women after?
Yes, because they were shocked
that I… wrote it.
Right. And I was shocked
that they were shocked,
because they knew that… [chuckles]
…other Bunnies who had tried
to expose working conditions
had been dealt with very harshly,
to put it mildly.
That's a situation
where I would find it hard
not to come out of that experience
judging and disliking… men.
-'Cause of the way they were.
-Uh, no, just Hefner.
-[interviewer] Just Hefner.
-[laughs]
You really didn't like Hugh Hefner,
or he didn't…
What were your feelings about him?
[Gloria] Uh…
He's kind of a joke.
-He was pathetic.
-Mm-hmm. Pathetic?
Incredibly pathetic. Yeah, right.
He wanted to be
something he wasn't.
Which was?
Which was, uh, a handsome man,
successful with women.
[interviewer] Mm-hmm.
He created this fantasy in his magazine,
but it had nothing to do with his life.
In the end, I wasn't sorry
I took the assignment and wrote the piece,
because… the piece was used
in legal cases against the Playboy Club
for illegal employment practices.
-[interviewer] Right.
-Right.
Also, talking about beauty is a subject
that obviously has been a big part
of every conversation about you.
In the early '70s,
Vogue magazine, of all places,
calls you the most attractive activist
in women's lib.
Yeah, but that's only 'cause they think
feminists aren't beautiful.
[interviewer] Which is an odd thing.
Yeah, I mean, it's the leftover,
"If you could get a man,
you wouldn't be doing this."
-[interviewer] Right.
-Kind of thing. Right.
Did it make you angry?
Did it make you feel, again,
as somebody who loved the community,
you're being singled out?
It was frustrating because you think…
You're there working your ass off…
[chuckling] …and they tell you…
[laughing]
…that you're only noticed or succeeding
or worthwhile because of how you look.
-[interviewer] Right.
-It's very frustrating.
Do you think men in power were more likely
to take a meeting with you
or to say yes because of that?
Was it something
that was part of… affected this?
Well, I don't know,
because I can't know exactly what they…
But I do remember opposite circumstances.
I remember my…
At the time, I had a literary agent
who sent me to an editor at Life magazine,
and I was standing in front of him.
He's behind his desk,
and he looked up at me, and he said,
"We don't want a pretty girl.
We want a writer. Leave."
-He really said that.
-Hmm.
[chuckles] So… so it works both ways.
How old were you then?
Late twenties, early thirties, maybe.
Did you have to overcome that yourself,
to say, "No, I am a writer," or…?
No. I… I mean, he… he… he was an asshole.
[interviewer] Asshole.
That was your reaction,
"This guy's an asshole"?
Well, I was surprised by it, you know,
and I said to my literary agent,
"Send me to someone else," you know?
-Right.
-[chuckling]
Betty Friedan wrote The Feminine Mystique,
which is one of the most important books
in the second wave of feminism,
and also she wrote…
She put it out the same year
that you wrote your Playboy article.
-I don't know if that's relevant to it.
-I didn't realize that, I don't think.
What's so interesting with it
is that she's describing
the plight of your mother,
you know, in terms of
what has happened to American women.
And then I read that your mother wanted
to meet her and went to shake her hand,
and when Betty found out
she was your mother,
she wouldn't shake her hand.
Yeah, I do-- I mean,
uh, she just felt very
competitive
or she, for whatever reasons…
I mean, I didn't know her that well,
so there were…
We all have our reasons.
But anyway,
she kind of felt an ownership
of the women's movement
and was not necessarily supportive
of other people
who became publicly identified,
and that was kind of painful.
You had to work around that,
say, at the…
at Democratic conventions, for instance,
to make sure that she was the spokeswoman
for whatever important issue it was.
Very different than your approach to it,
which is about community building
and about "We're all…
We need to all speak and all be there."
Yeah, but, I mean, she had a sister
who wrote me a letter,
which probably I still have someplace,
of empathy and kindness.
The sister said…
she said,
"I understand what you're going through,
because," she said, "I, Betty's sister,
was called the 'pretty one,'
and it really hurt Betty's feelings."
-Wow.
-So it did help me to understand.
Wow. Was it hard
to stay joyous in the fight
when… when it was, I imagine,
very frustrating and… Was it hard?
It… Yes, but on the other hand,
the great thing about a movement
is you have each other.
-Right.
-You know?
And you are working on shared concerns,
and, you know, we're communal animals.
We need this.
We perish if we're by ourselves,
so that's partly what movements are about.
And I never ever would have done it
if it hadn't been for, you know,
the women I was speaking with.
If you'd ever met Flo Kennedy,
you would understand that I was, like,
immobile compared to her.
[laughing]
She… she was so out-there
and funny and wonderful and…
Of course, what used to happen, too,
because we spoke in pairs in that way,
is that some hostile person
in the audience would ask
if we were a couple.
[chuckling]
This was a hostile… press,
man, woman, just some…?
Usually a man, but not always, yeah.
But they were campus
or community audiences,
and Flo would always say,
"Are you my alternative?"
and that kind of…
-Right, yeah, of course.
-…put an end to it.
Yeah, they don't realize they're dealing
with people much smarter than they are.
They'll take it out of them.
And so… And that's… that is something
I wanted to talk about as well,
which is, you know, when I look back
on a lot of these interviews
and a lot of these speaking events,
the amount of ignorance and hostility,
even from people that you would think
would be open to the idea of equality,
and how you were able to keep
that centeredness always,
at least publicly, and whether you…
maybe privately you didn't.
Well, it's the function of a movement.
You have company.
You know, you're…
you're… you're never by yourself.
So it's not as difficult
when you're misunderstood
out there someplace.
Right.
But I'm sure that this was
partly because movements in general,
the civil rights movement,
the women's movement,
the gay and lesbian and transgender,
these movements
that were really generated from below
and changing society
were new and were misunderstood.
[interviewer] Right.
So, in 1972, you started Ms. Magazine.
-Is that… is that correct?
-Yes.
It must have been,
even before it launched,
a very special place to work.
You were seeing what was possible.
Mm-hmm. It was. It was.
And also, it wasn't
a huge financial success,
but it was an influential success.
Right.
And so the actual,
I don't know what you call it,
the word "Ms." or the…
was not something
that was officially used.
No, it… it… it came along
as a way of indicating
female without marital status.
It was ages
before The New York Times used it.
For a long time,
I was "Miss" Steinem of "Ms." Magazine
in The New York Times.
But Nixon, one of the Nixon tapes,
it's him saying he refused to use it.
-Yeah.
-He was angry.
Somebody recorded him
in the Oval Office saying,
"Ms., what… what does that mean?"
You know? Right.
It's kind of both not understanding
and dismissing.
You called him sexually insecure
at some point.
[laughs]
What are your feelings of men then, right,
if you're fighting this fight as a woman
and in the patriarchy?
-First of all, I had a great father.
-Mm-hmm.
Wonderful, funny, kind-hearted.
-Irresponsible, but good father.
-Mm-hmm.
Which, I think,
makes a fundamental difference.
-Mm-hmm, definitely.
-Um…
Secondly, I had, um, kind of long romances
with men who were good men.
-[interviewer] Mm-hmm.
-Right.
[interviewer] Yeah. Your husband,
so you… so you married, uh, David
when you were 66 years old?
Then he got ill very soon after.
Well, he, um,
was having citizenship… problems,
had been born in South Africa.
So would you not have gotten married
if he didn't need the citizenship?
Would you have not done it?
Uh… I… That's a good question.
There wasn't any real reason.
We were together anyway.
Why… why get married?
But the second big reason
was that Wilma Mankiller,
chief of the Cherokee Nation… [chuckles]
…offered us a Cherokee ceremony.
I mean, who can resist that? [laughs]
So, uh, in her front yard at dawn,
we walked around the fire five times,
which is part of the Cherokee ceremony,
at least in her experience.
So this all came together
quickly, actually. It was…
Wilma said, "I'll marry you guys,
and we'll have some fun."
And you guys said, "Okay."
Well, and… and… and also because
it was important for his citizenship.
Right. And then he got ill
soon after you got married?
Yeah. I… I can't remember
exactly how long it was, right.
But you cared for him.
Yeah, he was here in the hospital
for a long time.
Three months, I think.
Um…
And it was a… brain problem
that was, you know,
difficult to diagnose and understand.
So finally,
because his… the rest of his family,
his kids and so on, were in California,
so finally I flew with him
in a… by ourselves
in a hospital plane to LA,
so his family would be present
for him as well.
And that flight is something
I never wanna go through again because--
[interviewer] Why?
Well, he couldn't understand
what was happening, of course.
And he was scared,
and, you know,
and we were in this tiny little plane.
It was not a good few hours.
What did you say to him to comfort him?
You couldn't.
He couldn't understand, right.
[interviewer] Mm.
That must have been scary.
Were you crying?
Well,
no, I was just scared.
I don't think I was crying,
because sort of crying
connotes a solution somewhere.
[laughs]
Would you say you had a love of your life?
-Um… no.
-You didn't have one?
No, I mean, uh,
I mean, in terms of men I've loved?
Or women, anybody.
Somebody who you had such a closeness to
that this was the person
that… that, uh, was the deepest love.
[Gloria] Mm.
No, I mean,
because it felt deep at the moment…
I mean, Blair,
who I was engaged to in college,
or David…
-For one thing, they were all kind.
-Mm.
And all
people you would,
you know, wanna continue to know
even if you were no longer
in a relationship.
You weren't gonna abandon
this relationship.
-[interviewer] Right.
-It was unique, right.
You seem to find people
infinitely interesting.
Yes, of course. Yeah.
That probably helps you,
again, not judge them
and be able to fight the fight.
You appreciate the other side
as… as interesting characters
living their own lives with their own…
-Mm-hmm. Yeah, everybody's a novel.
-You know…
-[interviewer] Right.
-[giggling]
What's your favorite kind of writing
to do? When you sit to…
You've written many different things.
You've written books, articles…
Well, my… my favorite kind of writing
is when you feel
you're bringing to attention
something that has not received
enough attention
or that you're helping somehow
to make the invisible visible.
If this had not been the fight…
Like, if you had been born
at a time of equality,
would Gloria have found another fight?
Is Gloria just a fighter?
-Uh…
-And--
Well, I can't imagine it. Can you imagine
a time of complete equality?
Yeah, at some point,
the world's gonna explode,
and we will all be equal.
[both chuckling]
I think, until that point,
no, I cannot imagine
a time of all equality.
Are you somebody that loves that community
and loves the fight
and loves the experience
of being an activist?
Yeah, mm-hmm.
My living room is
a place of frequent meetings,
and I enjoy that.
Twelve to twenty,
usually women, sitting around them,
'cause nothing can replace being together
with all five senses.
So I feel lucky and content.
Are those joyful,
those… those talking circles?
-Are they fun and funny and emotional?
-Mm-hmm.
Talking circles are everything, you know.
I mean, because people share
very diverse, unexpected experiences.
And once Wilma Mankiller,
my friend of the Cherokee Nation, came,
and after a while,
she said, "You know, when we do this,
we have a talking stick
that we pass around,
so different people know
that you can…
each person gets a time to speak.
I thought we've reinvented
the most ancient and enduring form
of communication.
-Really.
-Yeah.
-Yeah.
-Yeah.
But I also, um, love being by myself
in my happy apartment,
reading, watching Dance Moms or something.
-Really?
-Yeah.
Is that what you watch
when you're enjoying yourself?
I was. I've sort of given up on it now.
I'm watching the runway shows, right.
[chuckles] But it's shows
in which you see real people
being who they are
and disclosing their own stories.
You like the authenticity.
Those are more fun.
How did you meet Wilma?
She was on the board
of the Ms. Foundation,
and we became friends, right.
I read that you're gonna be buried
next to her. Is that true?
Well, it's more difficult now,
because I think her ashes are
around a tree in her former front yard.
So… [laughing] …we'll have to work it out.
Will they be moved? Do the people
who bought the house know she's there?
It's… Her family still owns the house.
-[interviewer] Okay.
-Yeah.
I read that her funeral,
they had 23 fires,
and that the fires
supposedly send messages off
into the world, into the heavens.
They light your path into the sky.
So there are signal fires
on the high points of the landscape.
And there were such fires
all over the world for her.
Wow. Do you want that
for yourself as well?
It's a little pushy, don't you think?
[Gloria laughs]
I don't know. I mean, if, uh…
No. At that point,
it's not up to me anymore.
You haven't made any plans
for all that stuff.
That's not something
that you're thinking about.
So then how do you feel about
not being here anymore?
Um…
I don't… You know,
I… I don't know if we can contemplate
our own non-existence.
Um…
But I just hope
that I have,
however accidentally…
[chuckles]
…left behind some words
or actions or stories
or something that is useful to the people
or… and pleasurable, hopefully,
to the people who are going to continue
long after you and me.
Do you have a vision of the afterlife
in terms of an Indian
or Theosophy or the Native American?
Is there any ideas about…
Or if there is one,
or if it's just energetic?
No, I… I don't.
Uh, I just think that, uh…
we are
probably alive again
when someone thinks about us,
tells a story,
quotes… something.
-Right.
-Mm-hmm.
But, um…
But life is in the present.
Right now, you and me are sitting here,
and it's not about…
It's less, anyway, about memory
or inspiration from another generation
or hopes for the future.
It's now. Hello. [laughs]
-[interviewer] Right.
-With all five senses.
[interviewer] Mm-hmm.
There's a poem that Wilma wrote for you.
It seems like
a really good description of you.
I wanted to read some of it.
Would that be okay?
-Mm-hmm.
-I'll read a little bit. Um…
The poem is called
I Want to be Reincarnated
as Gloria Steinem.
If I was ever reincarnated
I wanna come back as Gloria Steinem
So I can have a sharp mind, a quick wit,
And faith in people
That never wavers or doubts
So I can be a sister
to all things in the creation
Women, men, children
Plants, animals
The stars, water, and the wind
So I can face all life's burdens squarely
and dance anyway
So I can tirelessly work
for a just society
And find something
to laugh about every day
So I can be one
of the most important women of the century
And remain genuinely humble
And despite everything
Still express love unconditionally
I want to be reincarnated
As Gloria Steinem
So I can live a full, joyful life
With few regrets
Except perhaps not going to the beach
A little bit more
What do you think when you hear that now?
Uh…
I would love to be seen,
no matter who I am, by Wilma's eyes,
and certainly
uh, I feel that Wilma
gives me life and something to live up to.
So then how would you want people
to be talking about you,
What would you want people
to say about you,
both who didn't know you and did know you?
[Gloria] Hmm.
Well, there was this person who tried to…
make the world a little more…
uh, equal,
compassionate,
joyful,
funny…
[chuckling]
…than it was when I showed up.
I think it's undeniable
that you have accomplished that.
Undeniable. I mean…
I don't know.
A lot of people were denying.
[laughs]
[interviewer] I think that's
the other lesson I learned from you,
and it's easy to be resistant to progress,
but it's hard to say,
"I'm committing to that,"
and that you chose the harder path.
It doesn't feel harder. It feels like fun.
Anybody fighting for authenticity
and compassion
always seems to have a happier life.
Well, I think so,
because we are social animals,
and we only generate oxytocin,
which I believe is what allows us
to empathize when we're together.
[interviewer] Mm.
So what do you think about the world
you're leaving behind
after your, you know,
ten, twelve decades of life?
What do you think? Are you hopeful?
-Yeah. No, I am.
-Even at a time--
Because hope is
a form of planning, remember, okay?
So…
[laughs] …it's important to have hope.
If you don't hope it…
[chuckling]
…it's way less likely to happen.
Right. Yeah, you said that we live on
in other people's memories of us
and in the differences we make,
and I think that the difference
you have made in the world
and the memories people have of you
are gonna live on for a very long time.
So thank you for sharing yourself
with us today and with me today.
No, you don't think they'll be saying,
"Oh yeah, what's her name…"? [chuckles]
[interviewer] No.
I don't think so. I don't think so.
'Cause as long as the fight goes on,
your part in it will matter
in terms of inspiring people,
and as we said,
the fight will always go on.
-So you will always go on.
-Yeah.
We're gonna pick up the fight from here.
And now that we are nearing
the end of our conversation,
I'm gonna step out of the room
and give you the opportunity
to say your final words
for the next generation of fighters.
That's your camera right there.
That's your audience right there.
And so just say
what you wanna say to them.
[Gloria] Thank you, thank you.
-Thanks, Gloria.
-Okay.
Hello, all you
unique individuals out there.
I'm so glad to be meeting you
through the magic of the media.
I wish I could meet
each one of you in person,
but, in a way, this is what allows us now
to see each other's lives,
to influence each other's lives,
to respect each other,
and to therefore perpetuate
what we hope
is a global democracy.
Um…
Please feel free to respond
in any way you can,
and please tell your own story.
This is the most important thing
we can do for each other,
is to know each other through stories.
And I hope so much
that whoever you are listening right now,
you are able to do what you love,
to be also the unique person you are.
[somber instrumental music playing]
[music fades out]