Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath (2016) s01e00 Episode Script
Ask Me Anything (Special)
1 Okay.
You ready? Man: Stand by.
Believe me, I wouldn't be here on a Sunday with Colt.
I've heard from relatives, from friends, from people I knew at school.
I'm getting all sorts of e-mails from guys I knew when I was selling cars in Denver.
For what? Oh.
Just for support? Yeah.
And that is driving them nuts.
Well, I just want to make sure, Mike, that we've answered the questions.
Woman: The whole point of this is, people have questions based on what they've seen in this series so far.
Yeah.
So what's been the fallout? A few specifics, maybe? Yeah, I got it.
I got it.
Okay, let's -- I don't want to -- Okay.
I'm gonna step out.
Yeah, yeah.
Man: Okay, let's go.
So, we wanted to take a minute to answer some of the viewers' questions, and that's why we're here today, to -- First of all, I want to thank you and Mike wants to thank you for your support and our contributors to the show.
The way you've supported us and the people who were brave enough to tell their story -- we cannot thank you enough.
I would start crying, but I have eyelashes on, and I don't want the glue to come undone.
But because you guys have been so supportive of this show, the Church has responded in kind with their policies on how to go after not only me, but everyone who has contributed to the show.
Your supporting the show is driving Scientology absolutely insane.
They are spending so much money to combat the truth.
Absolutely, Leah, and everything that they do is what they always do.
Right.
The groundswell of interest in the subject is really driving them nuts.
And, as always, none of their responses have anything to do with the actual issues that are raised.
Right.
They're all about, "Oh, Leah Remini, she's this.
Oh, Mike Rinder, he's that.
Right.
Oh, Amy Scobee, she's this.
" It's par for the course.
With that, we want to be involved with you as you are with us, and so we're taking the time to answer some of your questions from Reddit.
And we have some guests here to help us answer some of these questions.
I know.
Thank God.
So, anyway, we're gonna answer some of your questions, but the first thing that I want to focus on is, since the show aired, I have received lots of e-mails, social media crazy support.
But I know you've received a lot of -- I've been overwhelmed, Leah.
Yeah.
Overwhelmed, because, you know, I have a blog, too.
Yeah.
So there's people that reach out to me on my blog about Scientology.
But I think that the defining thing, apart from just the scope of the support, Yeah.
is the number of people who have said, "For the first time, I feel like the real story is being told.
" Right.
"For the first time, I feel like it's safe for me to say something.
" Right.
"And for the first time, people are suddenly writing to us and saying, 'Now we understand a bit about what you went through.
'" Right.
I think this resonates with people as a David and Goliath story.
I couldn't agree with you more.
And that Goliath shrivels in size and ability to do things when everybody's watching.
Okay, so, Mike and I want to answer some of your questions that you've been asking us.
And these are questions that came to us via Reddit.
All right.
"Hi, Leah.
For someone who left, is there anything a loved one can do to help a member see the truth without ruining the relationship completely?" No.
[ Laughs .]
Really, honestly, no.
You need to understand that they're brainwashed.
You need to understand they think out in the real world, that Scientology is doing amazing things.
They don't know what's going on in the real world.
Maybe, yes, a relationship might be damaged for a short time.
But you have to take the step.
You have to fight.
You have to fight for your family members that are in.
We can't fight for your family members.
Believe me, I would love to walk into Scientology and grab your son and daughter.
They're gonna tell me to go eff myself.
You need to do it.
If they're underage, you have every right to ring the bell, wherever they are, and say, "I want my family member.
I want to speak to them alone.
I want to speak to them outside of these gates without a representative of the Church.
" You have every right to do it, and you should do it.
Correct.
All right, was there a secret -- Oh, let me It's so crazy when you actually put your glasses on 'cause, like, you look at something and you're like, "That's small.
" And then you put the glasses on, and you're like, "It wasn't small.
" [ Laughs .]
Because I don't want to believe that I'm old, Mike, and so I try not to wear glasses for reading.
You're not old, Leah -- not compared to me.
True, you're older.
There you go.
Don't you feel better? Okay, what is it? I'll read it.
Okay.
"Was there" -- I have contacts, so "Was there a secret group of people or friends you had in the Church that doubted it, or did you feel alone?" Oh, for me, I doubted it, and I would go to my closest, most intimate friends in Scientology.
And I would say, you know, "Did you see that thing on the Internet?" And I would get reported for that.
That friend or family member would then be required to write an internal report on me -- basically, alerting the church that I was having disaffected feelings towards my church and that I would be considered an enemy.
So if you had voiced any concerns to a family member -- a husband, a wife, a child -- they're taught to believe that by turning you in, they're helping you, because they believe in their hearts, like, you are lost and you are in trouble.
And people would say that a lot.
Like, "Leah, you're in trouble.
" Like, "You need help.
" But they'd say things like that to me.
"You need help.
" Can you imagine, like, a family member going, "You need help"? But I'm like, "I need help? You need [bleep.]
help.
" I mean -- and then I would -- I would seem crazy because I'd get emotional and passionate about it.
Right.
I'm like, "I don't need help.
You need help.
You need to look at this e-mail.
You need to look at this e-mail.
" And two of my closest friends -- one of these people, I considered like a father to me -- I go to these people that I considered family members, and I said, "Listen, Debbie Cook," she's the captain of the Flag Service Org -- "She sent out this e-mail.
Did you read it?" I said.
The wife says, "Oh, why would I read that? Why would I read that crap?" I go, "It's the captain -- your captain of the Flag Service Organization.
Why wouldn't you read it?" She goes, "'Cause I wouldn't want to read anything that's negative about my church.
" I go, "But But you don't know what she said.
" "Well, I heard about it from the Church.
" So the Church intercepted this e-mail and said, "Listen, if you see an e-mail from Debbie Cook, delete it.
" Ignore it, yeah.
"She's an evil person, she was committing crimes in the Sea Org" -- whatever they tell you.
So I go to these people and I say, "Have you looked on the Internet? Have you looked at these e-mails? Have you heard of the allegations?" And Scientologists will turn you in.
They will just simply turn you in.
It doesn't matter if it's your child, if it's your mother, your father, your husband.
They will just turn you in, and they will tell you, "I'm writing a report on you.
" And you go, "Go ahead.
" And then you get called in, you get interrogated.
And unless you're willing to walk out the door that minute and lose everything you've ever known or your family, you usually just go, "Okay, fine.
I won't look anymore.
" Right.
Mr.
Miscavige ordered his communicator to break my finger if I didn't answer his question.
Okay, so, this is from a former Scientologist, a Sea Org member who was raised in Scientology and joined the Sea Org at 15.
"Thank you for what you're doing.
Thank you for being an example.
What has helped you get through the leaving process and the intimidation from the church?" I think -- I think the most important thing for me Yep.
was finding other people who understood what it was that I had experienced.
Right.
Instead of going, "Oh, my God, that's -- oh, my God, that's amazing," or, "Is that really true?" Right.
They would actually understand.
And we could talk about it Yeah.
and say, "We get it.
" I have a group of friends that we get together, and that's all we do.
We don't even invite our husbands, 'cause they don't know what the hell we're talking about, you know? So, I would suggest people create little support groups for themselves.
When you connect up with those sort of people, you realize that you weren't crazy.
Right! This is what I want to say to people like you and people like this person who wrote to us through Reddit, was -- my advice would be, you have been given a blessing of a second chance of life.
Live your life, enjoy your life.
Had you not gone through what you've been through in Scientology, you might not be cherishing the moments that you have with your children now, with your wife now.
That is -- You have a real relationship now.
In the Sea Org, you didn't have a relationship.
Right.
You never even saw your wife.
And now you're able to appreciate a real life.
So I say, like, cherish your life now.
[ Children shouting playfully .]
So we asked Paulette Cooper to join us today.
Hello.
Hi.
Welcome.
Paulette is a journalist.
I am a journalist.
You were one of the first people to write a story about Scientology.
But you were then Fair Gamed in a way that is so disgusting.
I want people to hear from you what happened.
You had a friend who got into Scientology.
It was very popular at the time -- probably about 150,000 members.
I spoke to someone who had left, and he started telling me that he had gotten some death threats.
Little did I realize that soon, I was the one that was going to be getting death threats.
And my book came out.
It was called "The Scandal of Scientology.
" And it was the strongest thing that anybody had written or said about them.
Right.
So it became all barrels against me.
They sued me 19 times.
I had 19 lawsuits that I personally had to defend all over the world.
And I was a freelance writer, Right.
I was in debt for so many years afterwards.
And every cent I made went to lawyers.
Every week, there was some other awful thing that they would do.
I moved to a new building with 300 tenants.
They all got a letter saying that someone has moved in who is a part-time prostitute with venereal disease.
Right.
They sent -- they found out that I had gone through a period of depression and had gone to a psychiatrist.
They broke into the psychiatrist's office, stole the records, sent it around to people.
I was so trusting that I met a man who moved in with me.
Okay.
And for five months, I lived with him.
Okay.
And I only found out years later Mm-hmm.
that he was calling in every single thing I said or did or wore, even, so that they could follow me and find me.
So he worked for the Church.
He was a Scientologist.
But then -- Wait.
It gets worse.
They stole my stationery.
They wrote themselves two bomb threats.
They called the FBI and said that they thought I had done it.
Wow.
And there it is, my stationery.
They got my fingerprint.
I was indicted.
I was arrested.
I was up for 15 years in jail.
I had this over my head for eight months, that I was going to be absolutely ruined in a very public trial.
I was totally innocent, but people thought I did it.
Right.
And nobody believed me.
I couldn't sleep.
I couldn't eat.
I went down to 83 pounds.
Right.
Oh, my gosh.
I was in such terrible state.
Who wouldn't be? Right.
People thought I was the crazy one, sending them bomb threats.
Right, to hear this -- Nobody believed me.
By the way, you know, Paulette, if I had heard your story being a Scientologist, Right.
I'd go, "This girl is crazy.
Yeah.
This woman's nuts!" That's right.
"She's out of her mind.
" And I would have been provided a folder of intel on you Yes.
Yes.
about your depression, being on psychiatric drugs, that you were insane, couldn't be trusted.
And so Scientologists Yes.
who are good people would be like, "Oh, this person -- she is crazy.
Right.
She's making all of this up.
" The idea was to either get me in a mental institution or jail so no one would believe me.
Right.
It didn't work.
In 1977, the FBI raided Scientology.
Reporter: It was early this morning when FBI agents entered and searched three Scientology offices -- one of them in Washington, the other two here in Los Angeles.
And they found all these documents pertaining to a woman named "Miss Lovely.
" And that was my code name.
And they would say things like, you know, "We sued her successfully this week.
We got her arrested this week.
" And, finally, people believed me.
The documents came out, and there it is, in their own writing -- "This is what we're doing to her.
" Right.
So, when it was found that the Church was engaging in what they call Fair Game, was anybody indicted on their side? Well, there was a grand jury, but they wouldn't testify.
And they didn't plead the Fifth.
They pleaded the First Amendment.
And somebody even went to jail for eight months rather than reveal what they had done to me.
And the judge realized that they would stay in jail for the rest of their lives, so they let them go.
Wow.
And nobody ever paid any real penalty -- except for me -- Right.
for what had been done.
We did sue.
Did you win? We counterclaimed.
Oh, I'm not allowed to discuss settlements.
Great.
Okay.
Good for you, Paulette.
[ Laughter .]
You settled with the Church, but you did not agree to a gag order, which a lot of people do.
I would never agree to a gag order, anyplace, anytime.
I am a reporter.
I believe in the First Amendment.
I will never, ever sign anything that says that I cannot say the truth.
Scientology today claims that there is no such thing as Fair Game, that Fair Game is not practiced in Scientology, because in October of 1968, the practice of Fair Game was canceled.
But that's exactly what they said about Paulette Right.
until the documents were all found in the raid.
1968 is before all of these events happened with Paulette Cooper.
They will lie with reckless abandon in order to protect Scientology.
Sure.
They will lie to the point of framing someone for a federal criminal felony charge to "protect Scientology.
" That is the mind-set, and believe me, the mind-set has not changed.
I'm tired of watching these things happen to people.
We all have to be exposing it together as a group.
We can't continue to be just people doing a show and the authorities aren't doing anything about it.
Right.
The wonderful thing now is that I am the least of their troubles.
Now they have so many wonderful people, like you and Mike.
I don't have to worry individually, as a person anymore, that they care.
Well, thank you for having the decency to fight against something when you were all alone.
It still hurts to this day.
You can never have something that painful that ever entirely leaves you.
The only good part for me was that the attorney who handled the final litigation had a birthday party, and my wonderful husband was at that.
So, indirectly, because of something so awful Yeah.
as what was done to me by Scientology, turned out to be great, because I met the most wonderful man and married him, so Oh, that's awesome! Thank you, Paulette, for telling your story.
Here are some of the questions from our viewers on Reddit.
"Do you worry about something happening to you in any way or another for doing this? Scientology is not exactly known to be 'friendly' to people who speak out against them.
" No, I'm not worried that anything will happen to me.
What I'm afraid of is nothing happening, that this won't be enough for the government to step in and do something about it.
That's what I'm most afraid of.
"What is the most unusual corrective action you've seen them do to someone or to you?" For me, the answer to that is when I was in the hole.
The hole is the place where people at the international base were kept 24/7 under guard.
And there was a big conference room that had a big table in it, and the carpet there was industrial-strength carpet.
Mm-hmm.
And people, myself included, were made to crawl around on their hands and knees around this big table.
And, eventually, your hands become bloodied and your knees become bloodied.
Then the next day, you're doing it again, so it never really heals.
I've still got a little scar on my left knee from doing that.
And that was just usual.
That was just every day.
Yeah.
Other than being punched and slapped and ridiculed.
Yep.
When I was in Scientology, I used to hear information about Sea Org members saying that they were abused.
Right.
And I remember thinking, "If that were true, then the police would be raiding this place and the FBI would be doing something.
If this were true, how come no one's done anything about it?" And I want you to talk about that.
The primary reason, Yeah.
Leah, is because people within Scientology are indoctrinated heavily.
The law enforcement, the FBI, the police or whatever, they're all horrible, Suppressive People.
So the concept of even going to them is something that just never enters the mind of a Scientologist.
Not to mention your doctrine says "If you prosecute a Scientologist, you will be expelled and shunned.
" So there is the fear of losing your family and everything you've ever known.
I actually wrote an article on my blog that is called "Dealing with Critics of Scientology -- The L.
Ron Hubbard Playbook.
" Right.
And it has all of these documents in there.
I want people to see this.
I want them to see it, too.
I don't want to be just like Scientology and say "Believe me.
" I don't need you to believe me.
I need you to Google it yourself.
I need you to believe Scientology.
Go look at their -- Go look at their policies.
Go Google "Scientology and disconnection," "Scientology and coerced abortions," "Scientology and physical and mental" -- just Google it! Make your own decisions.
I'm doing exactly the opposite of what the Church will tell its parishioners.
Right.
Yeah.
And I'm sweating.
That's the thing.
I get so passionate about everything that I talk about that I start sweating just saying one thing.
You don't look like it to me.
Oh.
Well, then, I don't care if you can't see it.
Okay, so, what is needed for something to change? I think that there's two things, Leah.
One, people to come forward today Right.
with incidents that have occurred recently.
Right.
Or incidents that occurred when they were children.
Right.
Because abuse of children is not going to be precluded by the statute of limitations.
Great.
Good to know.
People are also asking me, "What can we do?" I mean, I believe that the most effective thing that they can do is to contact their elected representative, Mm-hmm.
their congressman, their senator, and insist that their elected representatives take some sort of action.
That's something that everybody can do.
Here are some of the questions from our viewers on Reddit.
"What do you think makes this cult so attractive to people willing to join?" We get criticized a lot, like, "What are you two [bleep.]
? You didn't know what was going on in the real world?" Right.
No! No! And, by the way, who is gonna actively go after bad information of an organization that they believe in completely? Sea Org members are absolutely cut off from the real world.
They have an excuse.
I didn't.
I was home.
I had a computer.
I had access to movies.
I had access to books.
But it wasn't like I wasn't going into my church and saying, Hey, what about this?" And every time, you are subjecting yourself to interrogations of your family being interrogated simply for asking questions, so you learn to shut up.
And there are a lot of things like that in Scientology that when you finally extract yourself, you go, "Wow, this is nuts.
" Right.
You know, like, really? "Do people actually believe the story that book tells, frozen aliens under a volcano, or is it just a set of rules and philosophies?" It's principles dressed up in a parable.
Right.
Nobody believes in Xenu, the story, truly, but we are told, A, we're not allowed to confirm that that is a story in the upper levels of Scientology called the OT levels.
And, no, we don't necessarily believe it, but we don't have to believe it, is what we're told.
Well, I think, Leah, that there are people that believe it.
Doesn't matter.
Seriously.
Here's the thing -- it doesn't matter, because we need to stop talking about Xenu.
It's not really the story.
Correct.
The story is that Scientology is selling that these upper levels do not include the story of Xenu.
And it absolutely does.
Right.
I agree.
Okay.
Next question, Mike Rinder.
[ Imitating Mike .]
Mike Rinder.
[ Chuckles .]
Leah Remini.
[ Normal voice .]
"Is there anything good about Scientology?" Yes.
The beginning courses of Scientology, they treat -- they talk about communication, responsibility, being an ethical person.
But it's -- it's, overall, very damaging.
Overall, not worth your whole life, not worth losing your children.
Right.
And that's why there are probably a hundred times more former Scientologists than there are current Scientologists.
Great point.
I've asked Chris Shelton to come join us for a few questions because Chris was in the Sea Org for 17 years.
He also does a blog, and he does videos online.
And I've watched him because I always want to see what other ex-Scientologists say about what's going on.
And he seems very fair in what he says about what people are doing.
Hi, Chris.
Hey, Chris.
Hello.
And I agree with you.
I agreed with your points about when people criticize the Church, they criticize us.
They're criticizing things that we believed in.
It's wasn't that we just believed it.
It's what we were being told.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And shown.
And shown.
At the events and everything, especially, right? Because you're shown all these things.
Mm-hmm.
And it was only when I saw with my own two eyes that these things were not actually real in the real world, that it started dawning on me that I was involved in something that was saying one thing but was doing something else.
Right.
So you just up and left, right? Because that's another question.
People just say, [ Laughs .]
"If it was so bad, just get up and leave.
Just walk out.
" I mean, what's the problem? No, the problem was that I saw that the organization of Scientology and David Miscavige were not what I wanted it to be or not what I thought it would be or not what it said it would be.
Right.
But I still thought that L.
Ron Hubbard was speaking the truth.
I still thought that the technology of Scientology was worthwhile.
Right.
And I wanted those OT levels.
I wanted to move up that bridge.
Right.
And it was supposed to be the ultimate answers to all of life.
Right.
Everything was supposed to be explained on these OT levels.
Not just every question about Scientology -- every question about life.
Right.
And that's a pretty big carrot.
Yes.
And I went through a lot of hell for the promise of that carrot.
Right.
Even when you get to these confidential, extremely expensive levels, they're still saying -- 'cause I said, "That's some crazy [bleep.]
.
I don't want to go any further.
" They go, "Da-da-da! Wait.
" That's right.
"Wait till you get to OT VIII, because that's where it's at.
" My mother did OT VIII, and my stepfather did OT VIII, and they were like, "Uhthis is not great.
" And the OT VIIIs are turning around, saying to their kids, "Stop.
Don't go any further.
I've reached it.
It's not what it's supposed to be," and those kids are turning on their parents.
That's the part that's just mind-boggling.
It's like, these are people who have been there, telling you "Stop," and you're believing the Church over what your own family member's saying.
The promise that you have the answers and the solutions to life is so alluring.
People ask me, like, what do you miss about it? I miss the certainty.
You know, Scientology gives you certainty.
Yes.
Right? That is exactly, exactly the thing.
And I actually -- I've talked about this, because it is such a powerful force.
It's such a powerful motivation.
Yeah.
Scientology promises you -- when it promises you the sun, the moon, and the stars, what it's promising you is certainty.
Right.
It's promising you a stability that nothing else in the world can offer you.
Right.
Scientology is the answer.
Yes.
Exactly.
And to life.
Yeah, to life -- no, everything.
That is the statement.
Not only life, Mike, but the afterlife.
Right.
And there are people who just don't want to believe this is it.
You know, "Is this it? Is there more to life than just this?" And Scientology says, "Yes.
That's right.
And we have those answers.
It's gonna cost you a quarter of a million dollars minimum -- and your whole life -- but we have those answers.
" The issue isn't whether they believe crazy stuff or not.
Yeah.
The issue is whether they do crazy stuff or not.
Right.
And what's hard to separate in the picture of Scientology is that the crazy stuff that Scientology does is just as much a part of the "scripture" of Scientology as the crazy beliefs.
Right.
And it's a bit unique in that fashion.
Yeah.
You don't find it so clearly delineated in other groups, that "Our religious belief requires us to do these religious acts.
" Right.
And those religious acts are abusive.
We're not just sitting in a corner, praying.
We're not just lighting candles.
We're going out breaking up families, and it's because of our beliefs.
So we should be protected.
And anybody that complains about it is a bigot.
That's where something crosses the line to becoming not just a religion, not just a cult, and that is what Scientology is.
And you go, "I need to actually stop this.
I need to actually do something about this," because it almost becomes a moral obligation.
Right.
Yes.
You know? Because I think people say, "Why now? Why are you guys speaking out? Why are you doing this?" That's right.
Because you got into Scientology because you thought you were helping.
That's right.
And it speaks to that person in you that wants to be part of something big and part of something that's helping people.
And you're still that same person.
Exactly.
Yeah.
We still want to help.
Yes.
And Scientology doesn't kill that.
Right.
You know? At least, it didn't with me, and it clearly didn't with you guys.
Yeah.
Well, I really thank you for having the -- the decency to want to help.
The more, the better.
Do you have a website against you yet about this? I have, actually, not.
Oh, good, 'cause you -- 'Cause I will now.
Yes.
I just want to tell you now as a gift [ Laughs .]
From me to you.
From us to you, you will now have "Who is Chris Shelton?" That's right.
You will have a hate website dedicated to you.
So welcome to the team.
And thank you for all that you've already done and what you continue to do.
Thank you.
Leah: I had somebody call me who's a current member of the Church, and this person was saying that I was attacking the Church.
And I said, "Did you read my book? Did you see the show?" And this person said no, but what I'm doing is wrong.
And I said, "Hey, listen.
I'm willing to be friends with you even though you're a Scientologist.
Are you willing to be friends with me because I'm not? The one religion that Scientology will not tolerate Yeah.
is an ex-Scientologist.
That is the religion that Scientology will not tolerate.
Good point, Mike.
We're gonna meet Karen de la Carriere and her husband, Jeffrey Augustine.
She's pretty unique.
She was -- has been in the Sea Org for a long, long time.
I've known her since, like, 1973.
She was a highly trained Scientologist, trained personally by L.
Ron Hubbard.
She also used to be married to the president of the Church of Scientology International.
Heber Jentzsch.
Heber Jentzsch.
I want to thank you because you were so loving and supportive when we first started this project.
Hearing from you guys really meant a lot.
So, Jeffrey Augustine is Karen's husband.
Your website, I love -- called the Scientology Money Project.
Thank you.
Thank you for continuing to speak out in the way that you are.
It was important for me that you guys got to tell your story.
Karen: I was in for 40 years.
Yeah.
Believing in it all.
I want to the Apollo.
Hubbard recruited me personally.
I joined the Sea Org.
Karen was, at the time, married to Heber Jentzsch.
And Heber Jentzsch was the president of the Church of Scientology International and the person who was expected to go out and represent the Church to the world.
There was a very serious effort to persuade Heber that he should not be married to Karen.
Did that happen? Yes, it did.
I stay loyal to the Church for the next 20 years because my son is in the Sea Org.
You are, effectively, estranged from Alexander because you've left the Sea Organization and he's still there and Heber is still there.
Heber was not in Clearwater.
Karen was in California.
Alexander, a 12-year-old, was alone in Clearwater, along with my son, who was 12 years old, alone in Clearwater.
Sure.
Because they're Sea Org members.
They don't need to have a parent around.
Right.
They're just part of the Sea Organization.
Alexander was only permitted to see Heber 11 times in 15 years -- mostly two-hour slots.
Alexander called himself "the boy without a dad.
" Talking about Alexander being 12 years old -- he was having sexual intercourse with a 40-year-old at the Flag Land Base.
But, okay, so, your son, you find out, is having sex at 12 years old.
I only find out that that was happening after I leave the Church.
Basically, Scientology has the rights to your son.
Karen had publicly left the Church in 2010 and began speaking out on the Internet.
I'm on the computer, and I get this Facebook message from Aaron Levin-Smith.
"Sorry to tell you -- Alexander Jentzsch is dead.
" I I thought, "It's an error.
Alexander, Heber -- it must be his father.
His father is 76 years old.
" I immediately call Mike.
Mike says, "Karen, I'm sorry.
I do have verification of it.
" Jeffrey: Alexander had pneumonia.
He was at his in-laws' in Sunland, California.
Mm-hmm.
They're Scientologist OTs.
Instead of -- you know, with him at 104 fever, instead of rushing him to the emergency room, they let him lay in bed with a 104 fever and die over the weekend.
Now, I want Karen to be able to see her son's body, so I find out when it's released.
Mm-hmm.
By this time, the Church attorney has gotten ahold of the owner of the mortuary and has terrified him.
They said, "If you let her see her son, we're gonna sue you.
" The dead body was behind a wall, and I was begging the funeral director, "Can I just see him one last time to kiss his forehead?" The Church went to great lengths to make sure you didn't see your son? Yes.
We do have some money questions from Reddit.
Sure.
"How much money did you pay to the Church throughout your time there?" They like to say that there's free courses and it doesn't cost a lot to be a Scientologist.
Well, that's the P.
R.
answer.
You're supposed to give as much money as they can get from you.
That's exactly right.
There's no end to the amount of money they will take.
If you're a public member Yeah.
paying to get auditing to go from the beginning all the way up to OT, the generally accepted number is about $360,000.
So how do people do it who are not rich? They take out second and third mortgages on their homes or they live in apartments, they drive really crappy cars.
Right.
If you ever go to a Scientology event, you'll see a few wealthy cars.
Yeah.
Everything else are old cars.
Right.
You sacrifice, you work extra jobs, and you go without.
Good point -- You go without.
And that -- and that's what so painful.
People are giving up living to finance their actual religion.
L.
Ron Hubbard said there's nothing more valuable than Scientology.
You're asked to give up your retirement funds.
Uh-huh.
College funds.
College funds for your children.
If you even believed in that.
This is insane.
I know.
Here's one.
"I heard a theory that it's actually a giant money-laundering scheme for the members.
After all, once it goes through the Church, it becomes tax-exempt.
" The Church of Scientology is not a money-laundering scheme for the members.
No, the money flows one way.
It goes up.
You sign a legal form that says this is irrevocable money -- gone forever.
But you're asked to sign document after document.
How do you become a Scientologist? You sign four contracts.
You agree that Scientology is a religion.
Okay.
You abandon your rights to sue them.
Okay.
You give up your rights to ever see your confessional folders.
The last one is, if you go what's called Type III, if you have a psychotic break in the Church of Scientology, you agree to let Scientologists come and take you out of the emergency room or psychiatric confinement, lock you up in a hotel room -- Wait, wait.
All Scientologists sign that? I signed that? You signed it without knowing it.
Wow.
Well, I really thank you for all that you've already done and what you continue to do.
Yeah.
So, Mike, another question from Reddit is, "Why does the Church of Scientology have a cross?" Well, the Scientology answer to that is that it's an eight-pointed cross.
Those represent the eight dynamics.
Right.
Every area of your life is in a compartment, 1 through 8.
Right.
And 1 is yourself, and then it goes through all the areas of your life -- you know, husband, wife, children, and groups and things, animals, the environment, mankind, and then infinity, right? Right.
Do you want to say anything about that? [ Laughs .]
Or you just want to sit there, looking as gorgeous and from Australia as you are? [ Chuckles .]
Oh, okay -- "What influence does the Church of Scientology have on U.
S.
politics?" Zero.
Oh.
Well, there you go.
[ Laughs .]
Okay.
[ Laughs .]
"What do you think Scientology will look like in 50 to 100 years? Do you think it has longevity, or do you think it will come to an end?" Oh, I'm sure it will come to an end.
Yeah.
I don't think that the books of L.
Ron Hubbard are ever gonna disappear or that there won't be people that believe that they have a reactive mind or have read "Dianetics" and -- Yeah.
But organizational Scientology will be a distant memory.
Okay.
Okay, this is another Reddit question that I think is a good one.
"Where do you think Shelly Miscavige is?" For a long time, Shelly was at a property that is owned by one of the Church corporations near Lake Arrowhead here in California.
And she was sent there when she displeased David Miscavige.
Why? Mike, why? Shelly was privy to everything that went on with Dave.
Which is why -- You saw him -- Which is why I filed my police report.
Of course, because she vanished.
Which, by the way, I'm still following up on, because there are still answers that I need.
I do not know that she is alive.
I do not know that she's not being held against her will.
I do not know these things.
And so if the Church produces her by bringing her to an event, even if she went on a program and said, "Hi, Leah Remini, go [bleep.]
yourself," I'd be happy to know that she was alive.
I understand.
Right.
The police department should -- should -- should say, "Yes, we've seen her.
" No, I wasn't told that.
I was told that a representative saw her or spoke to her.
That is what they managed to convince the LAPD of.
But, then, when you've got a lot of money, Yeah.
you can go hire people who are influence peddlers.
Right.
And those influence peddlers can peddle influence wherever you want them to, if you pay enough money.
Well, I don't have that kind of money, but I do have you.
And I do have you at home.
And we should probably end on that note.
So, Mike, what is needed now, uh What's next? Right.
I don't know, but I know that it isn't gonna stop.
Yeah.
And I feel the same way.
I'm gonna continue to get and gather information.
I'm gonna start next with the children who have been affected by this abusive organization, and I want to get their stories.
Because a lot of people do reach out to me, Mike.
Once you know something, you have a responsibility to do something about it.
That's the way I feel.
That's the way you feel.
I mean, I look at this as a blessing.
I've been given a purpose -- to help.
There's nothing wrong with this.
There was a lot wrong with what we were doing before.
Absolutely.
Perfectly put.
Yeah.
Captioning Provided by A+E Networks
You ready? Man: Stand by.
Believe me, I wouldn't be here on a Sunday with Colt.
I've heard from relatives, from friends, from people I knew at school.
I'm getting all sorts of e-mails from guys I knew when I was selling cars in Denver.
For what? Oh.
Just for support? Yeah.
And that is driving them nuts.
Well, I just want to make sure, Mike, that we've answered the questions.
Woman: The whole point of this is, people have questions based on what they've seen in this series so far.
Yeah.
So what's been the fallout? A few specifics, maybe? Yeah, I got it.
I got it.
Okay, let's -- I don't want to -- Okay.
I'm gonna step out.
Yeah, yeah.
Man: Okay, let's go.
So, we wanted to take a minute to answer some of the viewers' questions, and that's why we're here today, to -- First of all, I want to thank you and Mike wants to thank you for your support and our contributors to the show.
The way you've supported us and the people who were brave enough to tell their story -- we cannot thank you enough.
I would start crying, but I have eyelashes on, and I don't want the glue to come undone.
But because you guys have been so supportive of this show, the Church has responded in kind with their policies on how to go after not only me, but everyone who has contributed to the show.
Your supporting the show is driving Scientology absolutely insane.
They are spending so much money to combat the truth.
Absolutely, Leah, and everything that they do is what they always do.
Right.
The groundswell of interest in the subject is really driving them nuts.
And, as always, none of their responses have anything to do with the actual issues that are raised.
Right.
They're all about, "Oh, Leah Remini, she's this.
Oh, Mike Rinder, he's that.
Right.
Oh, Amy Scobee, she's this.
" It's par for the course.
With that, we want to be involved with you as you are with us, and so we're taking the time to answer some of your questions from Reddit.
And we have some guests here to help us answer some of these questions.
I know.
Thank God.
So, anyway, we're gonna answer some of your questions, but the first thing that I want to focus on is, since the show aired, I have received lots of e-mails, social media crazy support.
But I know you've received a lot of -- I've been overwhelmed, Leah.
Yeah.
Overwhelmed, because, you know, I have a blog, too.
Yeah.
So there's people that reach out to me on my blog about Scientology.
But I think that the defining thing, apart from just the scope of the support, Yeah.
is the number of people who have said, "For the first time, I feel like the real story is being told.
" Right.
"For the first time, I feel like it's safe for me to say something.
" Right.
"And for the first time, people are suddenly writing to us and saying, 'Now we understand a bit about what you went through.
'" Right.
I think this resonates with people as a David and Goliath story.
I couldn't agree with you more.
And that Goliath shrivels in size and ability to do things when everybody's watching.
Okay, so, Mike and I want to answer some of your questions that you've been asking us.
And these are questions that came to us via Reddit.
All right.
"Hi, Leah.
For someone who left, is there anything a loved one can do to help a member see the truth without ruining the relationship completely?" No.
[ Laughs .]
Really, honestly, no.
You need to understand that they're brainwashed.
You need to understand they think out in the real world, that Scientology is doing amazing things.
They don't know what's going on in the real world.
Maybe, yes, a relationship might be damaged for a short time.
But you have to take the step.
You have to fight.
You have to fight for your family members that are in.
We can't fight for your family members.
Believe me, I would love to walk into Scientology and grab your son and daughter.
They're gonna tell me to go eff myself.
You need to do it.
If they're underage, you have every right to ring the bell, wherever they are, and say, "I want my family member.
I want to speak to them alone.
I want to speak to them outside of these gates without a representative of the Church.
" You have every right to do it, and you should do it.
Correct.
All right, was there a secret -- Oh, let me It's so crazy when you actually put your glasses on 'cause, like, you look at something and you're like, "That's small.
" And then you put the glasses on, and you're like, "It wasn't small.
" [ Laughs .]
Because I don't want to believe that I'm old, Mike, and so I try not to wear glasses for reading.
You're not old, Leah -- not compared to me.
True, you're older.
There you go.
Don't you feel better? Okay, what is it? I'll read it.
Okay.
"Was there" -- I have contacts, so "Was there a secret group of people or friends you had in the Church that doubted it, or did you feel alone?" Oh, for me, I doubted it, and I would go to my closest, most intimate friends in Scientology.
And I would say, you know, "Did you see that thing on the Internet?" And I would get reported for that.
That friend or family member would then be required to write an internal report on me -- basically, alerting the church that I was having disaffected feelings towards my church and that I would be considered an enemy.
So if you had voiced any concerns to a family member -- a husband, a wife, a child -- they're taught to believe that by turning you in, they're helping you, because they believe in their hearts, like, you are lost and you are in trouble.
And people would say that a lot.
Like, "Leah, you're in trouble.
" Like, "You need help.
" But they'd say things like that to me.
"You need help.
" Can you imagine, like, a family member going, "You need help"? But I'm like, "I need help? You need [bleep.]
help.
" I mean -- and then I would -- I would seem crazy because I'd get emotional and passionate about it.
Right.
I'm like, "I don't need help.
You need help.
You need to look at this e-mail.
You need to look at this e-mail.
" And two of my closest friends -- one of these people, I considered like a father to me -- I go to these people that I considered family members, and I said, "Listen, Debbie Cook," she's the captain of the Flag Service Org -- "She sent out this e-mail.
Did you read it?" I said.
The wife says, "Oh, why would I read that? Why would I read that crap?" I go, "It's the captain -- your captain of the Flag Service Organization.
Why wouldn't you read it?" She goes, "'Cause I wouldn't want to read anything that's negative about my church.
" I go, "But But you don't know what she said.
" "Well, I heard about it from the Church.
" So the Church intercepted this e-mail and said, "Listen, if you see an e-mail from Debbie Cook, delete it.
" Ignore it, yeah.
"She's an evil person, she was committing crimes in the Sea Org" -- whatever they tell you.
So I go to these people and I say, "Have you looked on the Internet? Have you looked at these e-mails? Have you heard of the allegations?" And Scientologists will turn you in.
They will just simply turn you in.
It doesn't matter if it's your child, if it's your mother, your father, your husband.
They will just turn you in, and they will tell you, "I'm writing a report on you.
" And you go, "Go ahead.
" And then you get called in, you get interrogated.
And unless you're willing to walk out the door that minute and lose everything you've ever known or your family, you usually just go, "Okay, fine.
I won't look anymore.
" Right.
Mr.
Miscavige ordered his communicator to break my finger if I didn't answer his question.
Okay, so, this is from a former Scientologist, a Sea Org member who was raised in Scientology and joined the Sea Org at 15.
"Thank you for what you're doing.
Thank you for being an example.
What has helped you get through the leaving process and the intimidation from the church?" I think -- I think the most important thing for me Yep.
was finding other people who understood what it was that I had experienced.
Right.
Instead of going, "Oh, my God, that's -- oh, my God, that's amazing," or, "Is that really true?" Right.
They would actually understand.
And we could talk about it Yeah.
and say, "We get it.
" I have a group of friends that we get together, and that's all we do.
We don't even invite our husbands, 'cause they don't know what the hell we're talking about, you know? So, I would suggest people create little support groups for themselves.
When you connect up with those sort of people, you realize that you weren't crazy.
Right! This is what I want to say to people like you and people like this person who wrote to us through Reddit, was -- my advice would be, you have been given a blessing of a second chance of life.
Live your life, enjoy your life.
Had you not gone through what you've been through in Scientology, you might not be cherishing the moments that you have with your children now, with your wife now.
That is -- You have a real relationship now.
In the Sea Org, you didn't have a relationship.
Right.
You never even saw your wife.
And now you're able to appreciate a real life.
So I say, like, cherish your life now.
[ Children shouting playfully .]
So we asked Paulette Cooper to join us today.
Hello.
Hi.
Welcome.
Paulette is a journalist.
I am a journalist.
You were one of the first people to write a story about Scientology.
But you were then Fair Gamed in a way that is so disgusting.
I want people to hear from you what happened.
You had a friend who got into Scientology.
It was very popular at the time -- probably about 150,000 members.
I spoke to someone who had left, and he started telling me that he had gotten some death threats.
Little did I realize that soon, I was the one that was going to be getting death threats.
And my book came out.
It was called "The Scandal of Scientology.
" And it was the strongest thing that anybody had written or said about them.
Right.
So it became all barrels against me.
They sued me 19 times.
I had 19 lawsuits that I personally had to defend all over the world.
And I was a freelance writer, Right.
I was in debt for so many years afterwards.
And every cent I made went to lawyers.
Every week, there was some other awful thing that they would do.
I moved to a new building with 300 tenants.
They all got a letter saying that someone has moved in who is a part-time prostitute with venereal disease.
Right.
They sent -- they found out that I had gone through a period of depression and had gone to a psychiatrist.
They broke into the psychiatrist's office, stole the records, sent it around to people.
I was so trusting that I met a man who moved in with me.
Okay.
And for five months, I lived with him.
Okay.
And I only found out years later Mm-hmm.
that he was calling in every single thing I said or did or wore, even, so that they could follow me and find me.
So he worked for the Church.
He was a Scientologist.
But then -- Wait.
It gets worse.
They stole my stationery.
They wrote themselves two bomb threats.
They called the FBI and said that they thought I had done it.
Wow.
And there it is, my stationery.
They got my fingerprint.
I was indicted.
I was arrested.
I was up for 15 years in jail.
I had this over my head for eight months, that I was going to be absolutely ruined in a very public trial.
I was totally innocent, but people thought I did it.
Right.
And nobody believed me.
I couldn't sleep.
I couldn't eat.
I went down to 83 pounds.
Right.
Oh, my gosh.
I was in such terrible state.
Who wouldn't be? Right.
People thought I was the crazy one, sending them bomb threats.
Right, to hear this -- Nobody believed me.
By the way, you know, Paulette, if I had heard your story being a Scientologist, Right.
I'd go, "This girl is crazy.
Yeah.
This woman's nuts!" That's right.
"She's out of her mind.
" And I would have been provided a folder of intel on you Yes.
Yes.
about your depression, being on psychiatric drugs, that you were insane, couldn't be trusted.
And so Scientologists Yes.
who are good people would be like, "Oh, this person -- she is crazy.
Right.
She's making all of this up.
" The idea was to either get me in a mental institution or jail so no one would believe me.
Right.
It didn't work.
In 1977, the FBI raided Scientology.
Reporter: It was early this morning when FBI agents entered and searched three Scientology offices -- one of them in Washington, the other two here in Los Angeles.
And they found all these documents pertaining to a woman named "Miss Lovely.
" And that was my code name.
And they would say things like, you know, "We sued her successfully this week.
We got her arrested this week.
" And, finally, people believed me.
The documents came out, and there it is, in their own writing -- "This is what we're doing to her.
" Right.
So, when it was found that the Church was engaging in what they call Fair Game, was anybody indicted on their side? Well, there was a grand jury, but they wouldn't testify.
And they didn't plead the Fifth.
They pleaded the First Amendment.
And somebody even went to jail for eight months rather than reveal what they had done to me.
And the judge realized that they would stay in jail for the rest of their lives, so they let them go.
Wow.
And nobody ever paid any real penalty -- except for me -- Right.
for what had been done.
We did sue.
Did you win? We counterclaimed.
Oh, I'm not allowed to discuss settlements.
Great.
Okay.
Good for you, Paulette.
[ Laughter .]
You settled with the Church, but you did not agree to a gag order, which a lot of people do.
I would never agree to a gag order, anyplace, anytime.
I am a reporter.
I believe in the First Amendment.
I will never, ever sign anything that says that I cannot say the truth.
Scientology today claims that there is no such thing as Fair Game, that Fair Game is not practiced in Scientology, because in October of 1968, the practice of Fair Game was canceled.
But that's exactly what they said about Paulette Right.
until the documents were all found in the raid.
1968 is before all of these events happened with Paulette Cooper.
They will lie with reckless abandon in order to protect Scientology.
Sure.
They will lie to the point of framing someone for a federal criminal felony charge to "protect Scientology.
" That is the mind-set, and believe me, the mind-set has not changed.
I'm tired of watching these things happen to people.
We all have to be exposing it together as a group.
We can't continue to be just people doing a show and the authorities aren't doing anything about it.
Right.
The wonderful thing now is that I am the least of their troubles.
Now they have so many wonderful people, like you and Mike.
I don't have to worry individually, as a person anymore, that they care.
Well, thank you for having the decency to fight against something when you were all alone.
It still hurts to this day.
You can never have something that painful that ever entirely leaves you.
The only good part for me was that the attorney who handled the final litigation had a birthday party, and my wonderful husband was at that.
So, indirectly, because of something so awful Yeah.
as what was done to me by Scientology, turned out to be great, because I met the most wonderful man and married him, so Oh, that's awesome! Thank you, Paulette, for telling your story.
Here are some of the questions from our viewers on Reddit.
"Do you worry about something happening to you in any way or another for doing this? Scientology is not exactly known to be 'friendly' to people who speak out against them.
" No, I'm not worried that anything will happen to me.
What I'm afraid of is nothing happening, that this won't be enough for the government to step in and do something about it.
That's what I'm most afraid of.
"What is the most unusual corrective action you've seen them do to someone or to you?" For me, the answer to that is when I was in the hole.
The hole is the place where people at the international base were kept 24/7 under guard.
And there was a big conference room that had a big table in it, and the carpet there was industrial-strength carpet.
Mm-hmm.
And people, myself included, were made to crawl around on their hands and knees around this big table.
And, eventually, your hands become bloodied and your knees become bloodied.
Then the next day, you're doing it again, so it never really heals.
I've still got a little scar on my left knee from doing that.
And that was just usual.
That was just every day.
Yeah.
Other than being punched and slapped and ridiculed.
Yep.
When I was in Scientology, I used to hear information about Sea Org members saying that they were abused.
Right.
And I remember thinking, "If that were true, then the police would be raiding this place and the FBI would be doing something.
If this were true, how come no one's done anything about it?" And I want you to talk about that.
The primary reason, Yeah.
Leah, is because people within Scientology are indoctrinated heavily.
The law enforcement, the FBI, the police or whatever, they're all horrible, Suppressive People.
So the concept of even going to them is something that just never enters the mind of a Scientologist.
Not to mention your doctrine says "If you prosecute a Scientologist, you will be expelled and shunned.
" So there is the fear of losing your family and everything you've ever known.
I actually wrote an article on my blog that is called "Dealing with Critics of Scientology -- The L.
Ron Hubbard Playbook.
" Right.
And it has all of these documents in there.
I want people to see this.
I want them to see it, too.
I don't want to be just like Scientology and say "Believe me.
" I don't need you to believe me.
I need you to Google it yourself.
I need you to believe Scientology.
Go look at their -- Go look at their policies.
Go Google "Scientology and disconnection," "Scientology and coerced abortions," "Scientology and physical and mental" -- just Google it! Make your own decisions.
I'm doing exactly the opposite of what the Church will tell its parishioners.
Right.
Yeah.
And I'm sweating.
That's the thing.
I get so passionate about everything that I talk about that I start sweating just saying one thing.
You don't look like it to me.
Oh.
Well, then, I don't care if you can't see it.
Okay, so, what is needed for something to change? I think that there's two things, Leah.
One, people to come forward today Right.
with incidents that have occurred recently.
Right.
Or incidents that occurred when they were children.
Right.
Because abuse of children is not going to be precluded by the statute of limitations.
Great.
Good to know.
People are also asking me, "What can we do?" I mean, I believe that the most effective thing that they can do is to contact their elected representative, Mm-hmm.
their congressman, their senator, and insist that their elected representatives take some sort of action.
That's something that everybody can do.
Here are some of the questions from our viewers on Reddit.
"What do you think makes this cult so attractive to people willing to join?" We get criticized a lot, like, "What are you two [bleep.]
? You didn't know what was going on in the real world?" Right.
No! No! And, by the way, who is gonna actively go after bad information of an organization that they believe in completely? Sea Org members are absolutely cut off from the real world.
They have an excuse.
I didn't.
I was home.
I had a computer.
I had access to movies.
I had access to books.
But it wasn't like I wasn't going into my church and saying, Hey, what about this?" And every time, you are subjecting yourself to interrogations of your family being interrogated simply for asking questions, so you learn to shut up.
And there are a lot of things like that in Scientology that when you finally extract yourself, you go, "Wow, this is nuts.
" Right.
You know, like, really? "Do people actually believe the story that book tells, frozen aliens under a volcano, or is it just a set of rules and philosophies?" It's principles dressed up in a parable.
Right.
Nobody believes in Xenu, the story, truly, but we are told, A, we're not allowed to confirm that that is a story in the upper levels of Scientology called the OT levels.
And, no, we don't necessarily believe it, but we don't have to believe it, is what we're told.
Well, I think, Leah, that there are people that believe it.
Doesn't matter.
Seriously.
Here's the thing -- it doesn't matter, because we need to stop talking about Xenu.
It's not really the story.
Correct.
The story is that Scientology is selling that these upper levels do not include the story of Xenu.
And it absolutely does.
Right.
I agree.
Okay.
Next question, Mike Rinder.
[ Imitating Mike .]
Mike Rinder.
[ Chuckles .]
Leah Remini.
[ Normal voice .]
"Is there anything good about Scientology?" Yes.
The beginning courses of Scientology, they treat -- they talk about communication, responsibility, being an ethical person.
But it's -- it's, overall, very damaging.
Overall, not worth your whole life, not worth losing your children.
Right.
And that's why there are probably a hundred times more former Scientologists than there are current Scientologists.
Great point.
I've asked Chris Shelton to come join us for a few questions because Chris was in the Sea Org for 17 years.
He also does a blog, and he does videos online.
And I've watched him because I always want to see what other ex-Scientologists say about what's going on.
And he seems very fair in what he says about what people are doing.
Hi, Chris.
Hey, Chris.
Hello.
And I agree with you.
I agreed with your points about when people criticize the Church, they criticize us.
They're criticizing things that we believed in.
It's wasn't that we just believed it.
It's what we were being told.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And shown.
And shown.
At the events and everything, especially, right? Because you're shown all these things.
Mm-hmm.
And it was only when I saw with my own two eyes that these things were not actually real in the real world, that it started dawning on me that I was involved in something that was saying one thing but was doing something else.
Right.
So you just up and left, right? Because that's another question.
People just say, [ Laughs .]
"If it was so bad, just get up and leave.
Just walk out.
" I mean, what's the problem? No, the problem was that I saw that the organization of Scientology and David Miscavige were not what I wanted it to be or not what I thought it would be or not what it said it would be.
Right.
But I still thought that L.
Ron Hubbard was speaking the truth.
I still thought that the technology of Scientology was worthwhile.
Right.
And I wanted those OT levels.
I wanted to move up that bridge.
Right.
And it was supposed to be the ultimate answers to all of life.
Right.
Everything was supposed to be explained on these OT levels.
Not just every question about Scientology -- every question about life.
Right.
And that's a pretty big carrot.
Yes.
And I went through a lot of hell for the promise of that carrot.
Right.
Even when you get to these confidential, extremely expensive levels, they're still saying -- 'cause I said, "That's some crazy [bleep.]
.
I don't want to go any further.
" They go, "Da-da-da! Wait.
" That's right.
"Wait till you get to OT VIII, because that's where it's at.
" My mother did OT VIII, and my stepfather did OT VIII, and they were like, "Uhthis is not great.
" And the OT VIIIs are turning around, saying to their kids, "Stop.
Don't go any further.
I've reached it.
It's not what it's supposed to be," and those kids are turning on their parents.
That's the part that's just mind-boggling.
It's like, these are people who have been there, telling you "Stop," and you're believing the Church over what your own family member's saying.
The promise that you have the answers and the solutions to life is so alluring.
People ask me, like, what do you miss about it? I miss the certainty.
You know, Scientology gives you certainty.
Yes.
Right? That is exactly, exactly the thing.
And I actually -- I've talked about this, because it is such a powerful force.
It's such a powerful motivation.
Yeah.
Scientology promises you -- when it promises you the sun, the moon, and the stars, what it's promising you is certainty.
Right.
It's promising you a stability that nothing else in the world can offer you.
Right.
Scientology is the answer.
Yes.
Exactly.
And to life.
Yeah, to life -- no, everything.
That is the statement.
Not only life, Mike, but the afterlife.
Right.
And there are people who just don't want to believe this is it.
You know, "Is this it? Is there more to life than just this?" And Scientology says, "Yes.
That's right.
And we have those answers.
It's gonna cost you a quarter of a million dollars minimum -- and your whole life -- but we have those answers.
" The issue isn't whether they believe crazy stuff or not.
Yeah.
The issue is whether they do crazy stuff or not.
Right.
And what's hard to separate in the picture of Scientology is that the crazy stuff that Scientology does is just as much a part of the "scripture" of Scientology as the crazy beliefs.
Right.
And it's a bit unique in that fashion.
Yeah.
You don't find it so clearly delineated in other groups, that "Our religious belief requires us to do these religious acts.
" Right.
And those religious acts are abusive.
We're not just sitting in a corner, praying.
We're not just lighting candles.
We're going out breaking up families, and it's because of our beliefs.
So we should be protected.
And anybody that complains about it is a bigot.
That's where something crosses the line to becoming not just a religion, not just a cult, and that is what Scientology is.
And you go, "I need to actually stop this.
I need to actually do something about this," because it almost becomes a moral obligation.
Right.
Yes.
You know? Because I think people say, "Why now? Why are you guys speaking out? Why are you doing this?" That's right.
Because you got into Scientology because you thought you were helping.
That's right.
And it speaks to that person in you that wants to be part of something big and part of something that's helping people.
And you're still that same person.
Exactly.
Yeah.
We still want to help.
Yes.
And Scientology doesn't kill that.
Right.
You know? At least, it didn't with me, and it clearly didn't with you guys.
Yeah.
Well, I really thank you for having the -- the decency to want to help.
The more, the better.
Do you have a website against you yet about this? I have, actually, not.
Oh, good, 'cause you -- 'Cause I will now.
Yes.
I just want to tell you now as a gift [ Laughs .]
From me to you.
From us to you, you will now have "Who is Chris Shelton?" That's right.
You will have a hate website dedicated to you.
So welcome to the team.
And thank you for all that you've already done and what you continue to do.
Thank you.
Leah: I had somebody call me who's a current member of the Church, and this person was saying that I was attacking the Church.
And I said, "Did you read my book? Did you see the show?" And this person said no, but what I'm doing is wrong.
And I said, "Hey, listen.
I'm willing to be friends with you even though you're a Scientologist.
Are you willing to be friends with me because I'm not? The one religion that Scientology will not tolerate Yeah.
is an ex-Scientologist.
That is the religion that Scientology will not tolerate.
Good point, Mike.
We're gonna meet Karen de la Carriere and her husband, Jeffrey Augustine.
She's pretty unique.
She was -- has been in the Sea Org for a long, long time.
I've known her since, like, 1973.
She was a highly trained Scientologist, trained personally by L.
Ron Hubbard.
She also used to be married to the president of the Church of Scientology International.
Heber Jentzsch.
Heber Jentzsch.
I want to thank you because you were so loving and supportive when we first started this project.
Hearing from you guys really meant a lot.
So, Jeffrey Augustine is Karen's husband.
Your website, I love -- called the Scientology Money Project.
Thank you.
Thank you for continuing to speak out in the way that you are.
It was important for me that you guys got to tell your story.
Karen: I was in for 40 years.
Yeah.
Believing in it all.
I want to the Apollo.
Hubbard recruited me personally.
I joined the Sea Org.
Karen was, at the time, married to Heber Jentzsch.
And Heber Jentzsch was the president of the Church of Scientology International and the person who was expected to go out and represent the Church to the world.
There was a very serious effort to persuade Heber that he should not be married to Karen.
Did that happen? Yes, it did.
I stay loyal to the Church for the next 20 years because my son is in the Sea Org.
You are, effectively, estranged from Alexander because you've left the Sea Organization and he's still there and Heber is still there.
Heber was not in Clearwater.
Karen was in California.
Alexander, a 12-year-old, was alone in Clearwater, along with my son, who was 12 years old, alone in Clearwater.
Sure.
Because they're Sea Org members.
They don't need to have a parent around.
Right.
They're just part of the Sea Organization.
Alexander was only permitted to see Heber 11 times in 15 years -- mostly two-hour slots.
Alexander called himself "the boy without a dad.
" Talking about Alexander being 12 years old -- he was having sexual intercourse with a 40-year-old at the Flag Land Base.
But, okay, so, your son, you find out, is having sex at 12 years old.
I only find out that that was happening after I leave the Church.
Basically, Scientology has the rights to your son.
Karen had publicly left the Church in 2010 and began speaking out on the Internet.
I'm on the computer, and I get this Facebook message from Aaron Levin-Smith.
"Sorry to tell you -- Alexander Jentzsch is dead.
" I I thought, "It's an error.
Alexander, Heber -- it must be his father.
His father is 76 years old.
" I immediately call Mike.
Mike says, "Karen, I'm sorry.
I do have verification of it.
" Jeffrey: Alexander had pneumonia.
He was at his in-laws' in Sunland, California.
Mm-hmm.
They're Scientologist OTs.
Instead of -- you know, with him at 104 fever, instead of rushing him to the emergency room, they let him lay in bed with a 104 fever and die over the weekend.
Now, I want Karen to be able to see her son's body, so I find out when it's released.
Mm-hmm.
By this time, the Church attorney has gotten ahold of the owner of the mortuary and has terrified him.
They said, "If you let her see her son, we're gonna sue you.
" The dead body was behind a wall, and I was begging the funeral director, "Can I just see him one last time to kiss his forehead?" The Church went to great lengths to make sure you didn't see your son? Yes.
We do have some money questions from Reddit.
Sure.
"How much money did you pay to the Church throughout your time there?" They like to say that there's free courses and it doesn't cost a lot to be a Scientologist.
Well, that's the P.
R.
answer.
You're supposed to give as much money as they can get from you.
That's exactly right.
There's no end to the amount of money they will take.
If you're a public member Yeah.
paying to get auditing to go from the beginning all the way up to OT, the generally accepted number is about $360,000.
So how do people do it who are not rich? They take out second and third mortgages on their homes or they live in apartments, they drive really crappy cars.
Right.
If you ever go to a Scientology event, you'll see a few wealthy cars.
Yeah.
Everything else are old cars.
Right.
You sacrifice, you work extra jobs, and you go without.
Good point -- You go without.
And that -- and that's what so painful.
People are giving up living to finance their actual religion.
L.
Ron Hubbard said there's nothing more valuable than Scientology.
You're asked to give up your retirement funds.
Uh-huh.
College funds.
College funds for your children.
If you even believed in that.
This is insane.
I know.
Here's one.
"I heard a theory that it's actually a giant money-laundering scheme for the members.
After all, once it goes through the Church, it becomes tax-exempt.
" The Church of Scientology is not a money-laundering scheme for the members.
No, the money flows one way.
It goes up.
You sign a legal form that says this is irrevocable money -- gone forever.
But you're asked to sign document after document.
How do you become a Scientologist? You sign four contracts.
You agree that Scientology is a religion.
Okay.
You abandon your rights to sue them.
Okay.
You give up your rights to ever see your confessional folders.
The last one is, if you go what's called Type III, if you have a psychotic break in the Church of Scientology, you agree to let Scientologists come and take you out of the emergency room or psychiatric confinement, lock you up in a hotel room -- Wait, wait.
All Scientologists sign that? I signed that? You signed it without knowing it.
Wow.
Well, I really thank you for all that you've already done and what you continue to do.
Yeah.
So, Mike, another question from Reddit is, "Why does the Church of Scientology have a cross?" Well, the Scientology answer to that is that it's an eight-pointed cross.
Those represent the eight dynamics.
Right.
Every area of your life is in a compartment, 1 through 8.
Right.
And 1 is yourself, and then it goes through all the areas of your life -- you know, husband, wife, children, and groups and things, animals, the environment, mankind, and then infinity, right? Right.
Do you want to say anything about that? [ Laughs .]
Or you just want to sit there, looking as gorgeous and from Australia as you are? [ Chuckles .]
Oh, okay -- "What influence does the Church of Scientology have on U.
S.
politics?" Zero.
Oh.
Well, there you go.
[ Laughs .]
Okay.
[ Laughs .]
"What do you think Scientology will look like in 50 to 100 years? Do you think it has longevity, or do you think it will come to an end?" Oh, I'm sure it will come to an end.
Yeah.
I don't think that the books of L.
Ron Hubbard are ever gonna disappear or that there won't be people that believe that they have a reactive mind or have read "Dianetics" and -- Yeah.
But organizational Scientology will be a distant memory.
Okay.
Okay, this is another Reddit question that I think is a good one.
"Where do you think Shelly Miscavige is?" For a long time, Shelly was at a property that is owned by one of the Church corporations near Lake Arrowhead here in California.
And she was sent there when she displeased David Miscavige.
Why? Mike, why? Shelly was privy to everything that went on with Dave.
Which is why -- You saw him -- Which is why I filed my police report.
Of course, because she vanished.
Which, by the way, I'm still following up on, because there are still answers that I need.
I do not know that she is alive.
I do not know that she's not being held against her will.
I do not know these things.
And so if the Church produces her by bringing her to an event, even if she went on a program and said, "Hi, Leah Remini, go [bleep.]
yourself," I'd be happy to know that she was alive.
I understand.
Right.
The police department should -- should -- should say, "Yes, we've seen her.
" No, I wasn't told that.
I was told that a representative saw her or spoke to her.
That is what they managed to convince the LAPD of.
But, then, when you've got a lot of money, Yeah.
you can go hire people who are influence peddlers.
Right.
And those influence peddlers can peddle influence wherever you want them to, if you pay enough money.
Well, I don't have that kind of money, but I do have you.
And I do have you at home.
And we should probably end on that note.
So, Mike, what is needed now, uh What's next? Right.
I don't know, but I know that it isn't gonna stop.
Yeah.
And I feel the same way.
I'm gonna continue to get and gather information.
I'm gonna start next with the children who have been affected by this abusive organization, and I want to get their stories.
Because a lot of people do reach out to me, Mike.
Once you know something, you have a responsibility to do something about it.
That's the way I feel.
That's the way you feel.
I mean, I look at this as a blessing.
I've been given a purpose -- to help.
There's nothing wrong with this.
There was a lot wrong with what we were doing before.
Absolutely.
Perfectly put.
Yeah.
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