Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath (2016) s03e01 Episode Script
Emotional Aftermath
I think you kick it off.
Are we rolling? No! Mom pulls out her list.
Well, I actually do have a little gyp sheet somewhere.
A what? Gyp sheet.
A gyp sheet? And this is why I don't talk! You know what? Maybe you're right, Mom.
Tonight we are talking about the emotional aftermath of leaving Scientology.
And oftentimes we talk about ourselves and not.
Really, this show tonight was sparked by our producers, who are here with us tonight, Chris and Ray.
And our families are with us.
My little sister Shannon, my much older sister Nicole Two years.
then my mother, Vicki.
Who's much older than all of us.
Ancient.
And then Christy, Mike Rinder's wife who is much younger than Mike.
Of which, we applaud you, Mike Rinder Thank you.
So do I.
But really, this show was being forced on us to be completely honest.
Really? That's how we're going to start? Yeah.
Because we don't really like to be emotional and we don't really like to go there.
And that's for a few reasons.
One, because we were raised in Scientology, where real emotion other than anger is not really looked upon kindly.
And if you are looking at yourself as a victim in any way, that is the lowest form of person you could be in Scientology.
Everything that's happened to you is because you made it happen.
And that ranges from abuse for physical, sexual.
Getting into a car accident, you're basically told that was your fault, if nothing else for simply being there.
And so it's not something that Scientologists in general like to really get into, but you two really pressed us in your office.
So I said you know, hey, if you want to do it then you do it, because Mike and I are not going to sit here talking about ourselves.
But also, what I don't know if this is part of what interests you, but our families have been greatly affected by leaving Scientology.
And that's not just with Scientology, that's with cults in general.
The fallout and the aftermath of what happens to families is devastating.
I was born in a family of Christians.
And I had this conversation with my own sister what life would be like if our entire belief system we woke up one day and said, you know what? No more.
You know, how would we make decisions? How would we go through life? And it helped us I think understand what all of this really is about for you.
So I think it's important to ask from an outsider's perspective what it's like to leave, but still have that Scientologist mind.
I felt relief.
Prior to you wanting to leave, I was thinking about it for years, going, you know, there's stuff here that I don't really like.
But you had never voiced it.
But I never voiced it, no.
Because you and I would talk about it a lot, just about me really not being involved in Scientology as much as you guys.
And we talk two three times a day.
And she had never once made mention anything about leaving Scientology.
Not once! Were you afraid to not say anything? It's not that I was afraid.
I just didn't know if you were going to continue and I didn't want to put any stops on you.
I just didn't want to say anything.
I thought OK, let's just It's interesting coming from my mother, because my sisters will agree.
My mother's not at all scared to hurt my feelings.
Like, she's the mother that says like, you know, you're get a little chubby.
No, no, for real.
Like, hated all of our boyfriends, even our current husbands, like, walking down the aisle going, you know, you don't have to do this.
So it's just interesting my mother you know, spent her whole life in Scientology, took out mortgages against her house to pay for Scientology, and went all the way up to the top of Scientology.
And then it was still like, well, if Leah wants to do it.
Was it more of like a like, a pride thing? Like, I put so much into this? Do you know what I think it is? What? I think it was honestly that there was a piece of her that still believed in Scientology.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, OK.
I think you put your finger on that.
But I think it also bumps into another thing, which is you get ingrained with ideas of how to think, and what is the appropriate thing to do and say in every circumstance in life.
Being raised as Scientologist or being heavily involved in Scientology, it teaches you how to deal with everything you never think for yourself.
Despite their slogan, the truth is that you have pre-programmed way of addressing everything.
And I was going to answer your original question Ray, with saying I think that the biggest thing about leaving Scientology is trying to figure out what's your own thought and what's the ingrained thought process that you have had hammered into you That's one of my questions.
Yeah, how do you know the difference? How do you know difference? I don't know that you do know the difference, at least to begin with, but you start finding out by interaction with normal people.
Right.
I'm serious.
When you interact with Scientologists, you know what you're going to get back.
And you know what their reaction is going to be.
You know what's acceptable, what's unacceptable.
And you start finding out when you interact with normal people in the world, hm, maybe that wasn't such a bright way of dealing with things? Or maybe that wasn't really that wasn't really a truth that you have been hammered into this is the truth.
This is what's true! This is what's right! So are you all trying actively in some way trying to unlearn what you learned from Scientology? Yeah.
And how do you actually do that? Trial and error.
It's so true.
But when I first left, it was like, the first week that I had nothing to do with the church and I found myself walking around the house.
What am I to do now? What am I going to do? It was like this empty space.
And then occasionally you would say to me here, why don't you read this book.
And even it was a self-help book.
And I was like, it was really hard for me to read these books.
But I did start reading them.
And you actually find that you can learn and be helped with your own self-awareness through these.
I felt like I wasted a lot of time in the church.
And I feel like I wasted a lot of years not creating with my family, not and specifically with her I don't know if I'm getting off track here but I felt like me cry alienated her.
I feel like I didn't have a relationship with my grandkids that I could have had, with her kids.
I'm just going to hand these out now.
There's one for you, Vicki.
Christy, this is for the future.
Here you go.
Right, you never know.
Do you guys need any? You good? Cameras? Now Nicole, what does that make you emotional? Yeah, I guess it just it because there was a lot of time missed, you know.
And so with me not really doing Scientology, yeah, I miss a lot of time with my family because of not because I know that that's where she was at.
You know, and you know, I moved out of state because I felt the pressures of Scientology.
And I just didn't want that.
I just wanted to be with my I wanted my family to be family.
You know, so it just kind of validates you know, like, thank you for saying that.
You know what I mean? It's I think that that's what it is for me.
You know, it's an unfortunate part of being a Scientologist that is very conditional love.
And that's between mother and daughter you know, sisters.
You know, our relationship with her and our stepfather was always contingent it seemed on Scientology.
You know, we were not really doing the right thing if we weren't studying Scientology, going to Scientology every day.
And that message growing up that way is conditional love.
And for most families that is 100% the case.
As with Mike, as with Christy, as with thousands of people like them who've lost their families, because they left.
It was 100% conditional.
Whatever they say, if you are now bad, if you are now a suppressive person, then we are going to disconnect for sure.
No question.
I don't think there's a Scientologist in the world who is a real Scientologist that isn't and doesn't operate that way.
If you are a good Scientologist and someone from the organization tells you this person is bad, that's it.
You're not questioning it.
That's exactly what happened on the phone with my mother, I said Mom are you going to disconnect from me? And she said well, if they tell me to.
If they tell me to, then I am.
And it's like, you have to do what you're told to stay in good standing with the church.
It's just part of the culture of Scientology.
And then the effects of that stays with you.
As you see, we are all very emotional at the drop of a hat and because it's just beneath.
It's right there.
What I think is important to talk about, and I don't know if this is my way of diverting attention off of me, is that because we have our families here.
And it's not really about us.
You're smiling because you're like no, bitch.
I'm going to get you.
I wanted to know how long before the diversions started.
But OK.
Well I think you've been you guys have been so good about this, because you really want it to be about how other people have been affected.
And you didn't want this show to be about the two of you and make it about you.
And I think you've done a really great job with that.
But I also think it's good for them to know what we see.
You know, like, one of the things for me is like, I feel so bad for Mom.
Oh gosh.
I'm so emotional, sorry.
I am the most emotional one out of all of us.
That might just be right now.
It's coming.
No, it's because she's the most human.
She's the least Scientologic of the whole group.
But it's like there's a piece of her heart that is so broken.
And I just I feel bad for her, you know? I do.
30 years of her friends you know, and I feel so bad when she runs into them in the store and they just ignore her, or they're like hello.
You know? I just feel bad.
And I feel the same thing for you.
Because I know you run into people.
And it's like, that's so heartbreaking for me, because I mean, I had people writing me going, hey, I know we're really good friends, but until your sister is in better standing, I have to unfriend you on Facebook.
And I'm like, whatever.
Like, thank you.
Make room for more.
That's all you guys had you know, as far as friends, because you didn't really have friends outside of Scientology.
Very oftentimes my mother will say I miss my friends, you know.
That's after I have a dream about them and I wake up emotional.
And she thinks they're reaching out to her in the spiritual world.
So then she tries to reach out to them.
And I tell her, don't do it.
You're only going to kill yourself.
It's going to kill you to reach out to your friends on Facebook for them to just block you or say they don't want nothing to do with you.
What's been the hardest thing for you to let go Scientology world? Well, it's the fight, you know.
It's the you never you're never right in Scientology.
You're always wrong, you know.
You're never good enough.
You're never doing enough.
The main tone of a Scientologist is anger because they have us what they call a tone scale.
And this tone scale is taught to every Scientologist, and it's ingrained in everybody's head that below a certain point means death.
And it just so happens that they use the anger part, which is in the middle, as anything at anger and above is good.
It's OK to be physical with other Scientologists, especially Sea Org members, to be beating each other.
It's very normal to be talking, yelling, demanding, you're abusive.
You know you know, they do drills that are very I think, starting at five, where it's called bull baiting.
And you would sit in front of another person and every Scientologist does this where a grown up is sitting across from you saying sexual things, yelling and screaming this close to your face.
And if you react to it, you have to keep doing it until you're what's called flat on it.
So they teach you not to react to being abused.
They teach you not to react to you know, being harmed basically.
If you react to things like that, a Scientologist will look at you and go what the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah.
They'll just say get it together.
I guess you know, to that degree, I still have some of that.
Like, I'm listening to now, and you go well what haven't you given up? And to some degree, I have to say that that's still with me.
Where are you reacting? You're also taught like, Mike and I were in the Sea Org.
So in the Sea Org you're taught make it go right.
Figure it out.
Whatever it takes, get it done.
Get the job done and nothing else is acceptable.
You have to have a balance.
And when you leave Scientology, your balance is like, not you don't have a balance.
It's like it all has to get done now.
We have to be busy.
Everything has to go, go, go.
No brakes.
Don't stop.
What do you doing? How come you're sitting down? Let's go.
Like, that's normal Scientology like, Sea Org member attitude.
And what is the reaction from people when that from people who were not Scientologists when you're doing that? They don't get it.
First of all, I'm tired.
And we're like, you're tired? Shut the fuck up.
You're tired.
Get it fucking done.
Like, stay up all night.
You stay up all night and you get it done.
Don't give me an excuse.
Don't give me bullshit.
And it's just that mentality is hard to let go of.
And you're asking us you know, on a deeper level, what is it? And there is an anger and there is a fight type mentality that you're always wrong.
And so in the real world, you're still fighting.
You're still fighting to be right.
You're still fighting to be heard.
You're still fighting.
You're fighting everybody, because no one ever fought for you.
You never had your mother or father going absolutely not is my daughter going to be in the Sea Org.
Absolutely not.
Well, Mike Rinder you know, Mike, our son, be being beaten or go on a ship at his young age.
Absolutely not.
And that's in the Sea Org and that's outside the Sea Org.
And so you get kind of raised with this you're not good enough thing.
And so you fight for shit that makes no sense.
And you never have to deal with your demons in that way, you know.
And that side of you that's confrontational and a fighter and somebody who's willing to bury somebody, you know, is a very is something in Scientology that's very much validated.
So is the anger is it possible that the anger that you didn't exhibit of course, it's learned behavior, but is it also masking the pain of the fact that no one has stood up for you? Probably.
I think you get used to being treated a certain way within the church.
And you feel like shit most of the time if you're not contributing money, If you're not doing enough time, if you're not achieving certain goals in Scientology, if you're not somewhere on the bridge.
So you just don't get appreciated or acknowledged unless you were doing something astronomical.
And then your self-worth goes down.
So then you get used to being treated like that, that you accept crumbles of good things from people, instead of being like, no.
I'm worth a lot more than that.
Eff off Basically.
So then that part of the aftermath is you don't have empathy and compassion for yourself.
That gets squashed over time.
Your empathy and your compassion is not something that Scientology validates.
That's where I wanted to go too.
Or values.
Because I know I know Vicki, you had mentioned that one of the hardest things to let go is the idea that people pull bad things in to themselves.
And so, you lose the compassion the ability to be compassionate.
And you struggle with that.
Right.
It's like what you said in the beginning, how you feel like anything that happens to you is because you created it or did something wrong.
So I feel because of that, I don't have compassion for others.
Yeah, I think that's very true.
And I think the other thing that everybody deals with too, getting out, is and you know, including myself, is that anything bad that happens to us is because we're not in Scientology.
Does that that comes into your head now? Yes.
Yes.
I think that there's layers and layers of things that we don't know who we are.
You asked you know, do you know who you are 100%? No, you don't.
Let's move on to Christy and Mike for a second, because they lost all of their family.
Like, they're here this week to film this show.
And Christy was saying today at my house that this was the first time that they've left their son Jeff with somebody else.
And Christy was saying you know, we don't have grandparents to give our kid to.
And Mike's family is not in his life.
And so there is an aftermath to all of them.
When you left the when you left the Sea Org, you lost contact with your mother because she disconnected from you.
Then you lost your mother because she passed away.
And you didn't even know that that had happened because Scientology doesn't see Mike as human to call him and contact him to let them know.
And his Scientology siblings wouldn't call him either.
You have zero contact with your brother.
Correct.
And who else? Sister, nieces, nephews, children.
They'll never know Mike Rinder.
Or your children.
They'll never know Christy.
They'll never know like, Christy, right? You have family here, right? Your mom is here? My mom and my brother and sister.
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I know.
It's sad.
And the same thing happened when her father passed away, which was just relatively recently.
This is what I don't think people really understand is that you know, I couldn't imagine being in LA with my daughter, and not being able to go see my mother.
Or having to explain to my daughter oh, you can't see grandma, you know.
Or you can't see your aunts, you know.
That's the aftermath of this cult really truly, is this pain that's here every day.
And this is by choice.
This is not because of death.
How do you cope with that? Because They don't! You know, Christy is sitting there crying.
Mike doesn't really know how to deal with that.
And this, you're seeing the effects you know what I mean, of that she feels bad that she's crying, and that she's upset about it.
And that's what Scientology has taught her.
Let's take a break.
We're going to take a break everybody.
She seemed a little touchy.
You're here, here in LA.
How does it feel with your mom and sister here and you can't get to see them? You mentioned it, and it just immediately breaks my heart.
Because again, I can't do that.
I know.
And I forget like, what watch that how hard that is.
I couldn't imagine not going to my sister's house.
Going fuck you.
And last time we were here, last summer, I said Mike, do you think we should go? Do you think we should try? And we didn't.
And my dad died.
And it was like, it was like, regret.
Like, we should have tried one more time.
But that's not on you.
Nothing it wouldn't have been any different, but I still think about it.
I still think why didn't I try it one more time before he died? And I didn't know he was going to die, but he did, you know? It was not something that you could have controlled.
It's not something that you could have controlled.
Yeah.
But you're right.
Like, I should feel that way.
But of course, I blame myself.
Or I feel some kind of guilt.
You had no control.
Because not only that, if you would have went Christy, it would have even been worse that he was dying and he's said that.
Right, yeah.
Because in his Scientology mind, he would have them summoning up his attorney and Thank you, Leah.
I love you.
Christy was telling me that story of the pain of not seeing her dad before he passed away, not being able to see her mom.
You know, what becomes even more clear, Scientology doesn't nurture not only familial relationships you know, but friendships and compassion, hugging each other, saying I understand how you feel.
And this is real, this is a real pain that you're having.
This is something that's very valid.
It's not normal in Scientology.
You learn that sympathy is a bad thing.
Like, there are policies.
There are things written about sympathy that sympathy is not a good thing.
You shouldn't have sympathy for other people.
And what I was telling Christy is I don't think you should ever get over the death of your father.
I don't know that that's OK.
Like, I wouldn't be OK with the death of my mother, you know.
I wouldn't.
So I don't know that it would be a day where I'm like, I'm good with it.
You know, in Scientology you're taught that a person dies, they're getting another body.
They're being born into another body like, as we speak.
So knock all that shit off.
That's what you would be told if you were crying about the loss of your mother or father.
So it's relearning you know, the aftermath of relearning who you are.
Since this didn't happen to us, I'm curious like, what would happen if you actually went and saw your mother today? What would she do? Hide.
We tried.
Like, I went to her house when I had my son in my arms.
He was six months old.
So that was five year 5 and 1/2 years ago I went to my parents' house in Los Angeles.
I knocked on the door.
I walked all around the property.
I looked in the windows.
I called their names.
I think they knew we were coming because there was a lot of PIs following us, private investigators following us that day.
And they probably told my dad not to be available, and made sure to fly my mom away, because my mom would be more vulnerable.
So they weren't there.
So I left a note.
I gave them my phone number.
I said I'm in town.
I'm here.
I was like, shivering.
I was shaking with fear.
And the fear of rejection, of what if I open the door and they and they see me and slam the door in my face.
Like, is that going to be more painful? Is it worth it? Is it worth the pain of even trying? Or is it better to just give up and move on because it hurts so much to try and get rejected? The main thing for me is the loss of my family.
That is the hardest part.
I mean, that is the ultimate sacrifice that I made for walking away is losing my father, my mother, my brother and sister and all of my friends.
There is no getting it back.
Like, I have very little hope that I will ever see any of them again ever.
And that is a huge loss.
I mean, it's over.
Like, my dad is my dad died in January.
And we weren't ever able to reconcile before that happened.
And there's no chance now of it ever happening.
So that was my greatest fear and it came true.
Shannon was born and raised as a Scientologist, did not value anything with Scientology.
And so she really didn't get an education.
I had tried to bribe her into going to college.
For every year you go to college, I'll send you anywhere in the world you know, first class.
That's what I could offer you.
And she instead joined Scientology to work for Scientology.
And it was very hard to break her out.
And so when you had that opportunity, you didn't take it because? The college? Yeah.
I don't think I believed in myself enough.
I didn't think I was maybe smart enough at the time, because I've always been to Scientology schools.
And my education was kind of crap.
I just had to discover who I am for real.
I'm finding my own opinion, just to take back my own power and know that I can survive by myself and I don't need the church for that.
But also Shannon, it's bigger than that.
It's you know, you're going to school for the first time and you're getting straight A's, you know.
And you're surprising yourself.
Like, you text us every time you take a test.
And then you text us every time you get the test back.
And you go I got an A+.
And I think that's shocking to you.
It is shocking! Yeah, but I think you're seeing now like, hey, I am somebody.
Because for the first time, you're thinking for yourself.
I think that's, for everybody across the board, is everybody is finally thinking for themselves, not necessarily making all the right choices.
You know, that's what life is.
You know, that's what experience is.
But we weren't able to have experiences.
Yeah, make mistakes and not be punished for it.
But you learn from it.
And the call for you, I mean, this has to be 100% vindication for you, because for most of your life, like Mom said, you've been kind of put out because you weren't one of us.
Yeah.
And I remember you were on a radio show not too long ago in Minneapolis, and you said Nick was the smart one.
And I literally fell to my knees crying, because I just felt like, oh my gosh.
Like, you know, to hear you say that was huge for me.
Why was it important for you to hear it specifically from Leah? I don't know, because I guess when she said that, it just I don't know.
I think it's because it's hard with these two sometimes, no offense.
But you can be really hard and judge.
Sorry, not I know how compassionate you are and how much you actually do feel.
But in the church, I even felt if I'm not on course or if I'm not there all the time and getting up the bridge, we're not as good as you.
Even if we didn't want to, we were just like, it was kind of a way to get your guy's approval.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that's why it made you fall to your knees and get emotional, is because you finally felt validated.
Yeah, it was.
It was just a validation of not like, I knew I was right, but like, I knew I was right.
Like you're not the outcast sister anymore.
Yeah! It made me feel like I was part of the family again.
Like, oh, we really are family.
I think that that's really what it was for me.
But it was it meant the world to hear you say that.
And you know, my husband knew that is exactly where I would be, that I would be on the floor in a mess when he heard.
You know, he came in and he just met me on the floor and was just hugging me.
Like, I know that just meant everything to you.
And it just did! It just switched everything! Knock it off now.
Stop crying.
Well, this is my aftermath.
What can I say? This is it right here.
To listen to what you went through, where I put like, I say to you this is what I put you through.
And I feel so terrible.
And you'll say to me but Mom, you don't need to feel bad.
What do you say to me? You don't need to feel bad.
Look at where we are now? I know that when I talk to you, it helps.
But as a mother But as a mother As a mother But as a mother I feel like I have failed you all.
But Mom, that's that's But I know.
I know what you're saying, and it makes total sense.
But I still have to live with that thought.
You know? I think you go through things for a reason.
And now we're learning a big life lesson to enjoy family, to stay loyal, and to live life and forgiveness and moving forward.
Well, I think I need deprogramming.
And I'm not kidding.
Go to therapy Mom! Because I mean, it's like, that these feelings it's like, I'm hearing them, you know.
And to some degree, I'm feeling them.
But I don't feel like I'm feeling them to the degree that I should.
Because I feel maybe it's still I still have it.
And all my thoughts are still engrossed in the church, but not realizing that I'm still thinking with that technology.
This was just following on earlier from Christy's story about trying to see her parents when we came to LA, we also went to Australia to try and see my mother when she was in a nursing home.
And when we got there, she had been whisked away.
I knew that that was going to be the last time I was going to have an opportunity to see my mother.
And it was sort of devastating that the lengths that Scientology would go to just to prevent me or prevent her from seeing me and meeting Christy.
Like, they flew her out of state, an 80-year-old woman who'd had a heart transplant who was in a nursing home, an assisted living facility.
And they got her out of there to avoid me showing up to say hello and giving her a kiss on the forehead and say I love you.
The most difficult thing for me in the aftermath of Scientology is living with the fact that I put my children in the position that they're in, and that they have no choice and have never had a choice.
And that's the sort of desperate fight that I feel I have to engage in.
And you talk about wanting to fight.
I want to fight about that.
I don't I don't feel I can walk away from doing everything I can to change that.
And all the other things to me, apart from my family now, are things to deal with and things to overcome, and to come to try and understand myself, and understand how I react to things and why I react to them.
But the thing that I can't get over is that.
And the thing that I can't I can't just put behind me is that, because they are there sort of in my mind every day.
And then when I see my daughter, I don't feel hatred toward her or upset, other than I'm so sorry that I put you where you are, and that you, even even more than me, you never had a chance.
That's the the real aftermath to me.
That scar and that wound is an open wound that just doesn't go away.
That's understandable.
That's understandable.
What is your aftermath? Yeah, what's your aftermath? I think it's evident.
I mean, this whole show is your aftermath.
Exactly.
And we and we deal with it, you know, not only with our own pain, our own family's pain, but we deal with contributors every day, with dealing with their aftermath of Scientology.
And it's not like they just go away.
Like, we know all the people who are devastated by Scientology, either by losing a family member you know, through death, and there was disconnection before that, or having their family destroyed and their son or daughter lives down the street from them.
You know, dealing with that every day.
When the cameras turn off, these people don't have their sons and daughters.
They don't have their, you know, family.
They don't have their dad anymore.
You know, so it's we deal with this every day.
You know, I'm in a heightened state of emotion every day of my life doing this program, you know.
And so has Mike.
Like, we leave here and we're like, drained from it, we're disgusted by it, we're enraged by it.
You know what I mean? It's it's a lot.
It's a, lot but you know, it's worth it.
I hear that.
And I absolutely agree 100% with you.
But your response was about other people.
What is your personal aftermath? Our question is you.
What is your personal aftermath? I mean, I think I've said it.
I think I've said that.
I still, like everybody else, trying to find my way.
Finding out who what I really am about.
You know, is that me? Or is that Scientology? We're so often taught to appear one way, but really secretly, we're another way.
I think people go through that when all of a sudden single after 50 years.
They start to find out who they are.
And you know, and find out who you really are is not something that you do overnight.
That's part of that's part of getting out of any bad relationship.
And it's not just about Scientology.
It's not just about exposing the abuse of Scientology, but understand coming out, thinking that we were doing all these amazing things in.
Coming out going wait, there's a lot of work to do.
There's a big piece of me that feels I'm behind now, 35 years.
You know, you think of yourself as up here.
And then you get in the real world and you're like, you ain't doing shit.
And you're never taught to enjoy anything, you know.
It's like, I'm not really I don't enjoy anything, you know, because of all of us are raised to believe that if you're not working or doing something, you're being a bum.
And there's things to do in the world.
And you know, it's very hard for me to relax.
It's very hard for me to feel like I deserve to be sitting around doing nothing.
And that's like, all that I would want, is just to be somewhere with all of us together doing nothing, but just being.
But there is this guilt of like, not really enjoying or what should you be doing something you should be doing something about this.
You should be doing something about the situation.
And so there that's also part of the aftermath of being in something like that.
How does the experience of Scientology affect the way you parent now? Well, I'm the opposite.
You know, I'm pushing education on her.
And she's like, I might not want to go to school.
And I'm like Now she says it as a joke to get a rise out of me.
But it's not like, I don't find it funny in any way, shape, or form.
I don't treat her as a spirit in a little body.
I treat her like a child.
You know, that's just I'm just the opposite of what a Scientology mother would be.
And Mike, the first thing for me is to make sure he knows that Scientology is bad.
I'm serious.
And I feel like for me, I don't want my kids to ever feel like they're not wanted.
You know, like, that's a very big thing for me.
I think the biggest thing, and I think we'll all agree, is the love, is the unconditional love is that we all say we love you.
Like, it's a constant thing.
You know, even when she is being her 14-year-old girl self, I always am very clear about I love you.
I want you to know that I love you, no matter what.
No matter what, I love you.
Yeah, that is a much better answer than mine.
And that's something that we were not taught in Scientology.
And I think that's an important message that we now send our children that we love you no matter what you are.
I think my kid's going to be fucked up no matter what, because that's kind of what you do as a parent.
It's your job that they grow up and they blame you for everything.
That's the cycle.
That's life.
It's the circle of life.
But my only hope is that you find a way to find that same love for yourselves, and that same worthiness for yourselves, because that seems like that's what's missing in all of this.
In all of this aftermath is this inability to look at yourself and say with the same words that you would give any person who you have unconditional love for, you'd apply that for yourself.
Absolutely.
I agree.
But I think you know everybody here is a survivor.
Even though you're seeing the tears and you're seeing the pain, everybody's surviving.
We have different philosophies.
You know, vulnerability for me is strength, you know.
So I think that that is what has been displayed here more than anything.
You would never hear that in Scientology.
And when you said it, like, it hit me, and like, wow.
Do you know what I mean? Because that you don't feel that way in Scientology.
You don't feel that you can be vulnerable.
And I I agree with you.
I think that is how it should be, that it should be strength.
But if you think about it, that takes great courage.
I went to an actual therapist.
And I'm like, what was the big deal? This is amazing! I love therapy! I'm like, why don't more people do this? I think everybody's fricking crazy and should be in therapy, especially in LA.
You know, the good news is you know, I think as time goes on and more Scientologists get out, more Scientologists seek therapy, which not a lot do I highly recommend it, because you could keep yourself in that very damaged place if you don't.
You need to deal with the pain.
Well, I think you helped a lot of people today.
I don't know, Ray.
Showing your heart is always a wonderful thing.
And that's what you did today.
That's a great thing.
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you all.
Are we rolling? No! Mom pulls out her list.
Well, I actually do have a little gyp sheet somewhere.
A what? Gyp sheet.
A gyp sheet? And this is why I don't talk! You know what? Maybe you're right, Mom.
Tonight we are talking about the emotional aftermath of leaving Scientology.
And oftentimes we talk about ourselves and not.
Really, this show tonight was sparked by our producers, who are here with us tonight, Chris and Ray.
And our families are with us.
My little sister Shannon, my much older sister Nicole Two years.
then my mother, Vicki.
Who's much older than all of us.
Ancient.
And then Christy, Mike Rinder's wife who is much younger than Mike.
Of which, we applaud you, Mike Rinder Thank you.
So do I.
But really, this show was being forced on us to be completely honest.
Really? That's how we're going to start? Yeah.
Because we don't really like to be emotional and we don't really like to go there.
And that's for a few reasons.
One, because we were raised in Scientology, where real emotion other than anger is not really looked upon kindly.
And if you are looking at yourself as a victim in any way, that is the lowest form of person you could be in Scientology.
Everything that's happened to you is because you made it happen.
And that ranges from abuse for physical, sexual.
Getting into a car accident, you're basically told that was your fault, if nothing else for simply being there.
And so it's not something that Scientologists in general like to really get into, but you two really pressed us in your office.
So I said you know, hey, if you want to do it then you do it, because Mike and I are not going to sit here talking about ourselves.
But also, what I don't know if this is part of what interests you, but our families have been greatly affected by leaving Scientology.
And that's not just with Scientology, that's with cults in general.
The fallout and the aftermath of what happens to families is devastating.
I was born in a family of Christians.
And I had this conversation with my own sister what life would be like if our entire belief system we woke up one day and said, you know what? No more.
You know, how would we make decisions? How would we go through life? And it helped us I think understand what all of this really is about for you.
So I think it's important to ask from an outsider's perspective what it's like to leave, but still have that Scientologist mind.
I felt relief.
Prior to you wanting to leave, I was thinking about it for years, going, you know, there's stuff here that I don't really like.
But you had never voiced it.
But I never voiced it, no.
Because you and I would talk about it a lot, just about me really not being involved in Scientology as much as you guys.
And we talk two three times a day.
And she had never once made mention anything about leaving Scientology.
Not once! Were you afraid to not say anything? It's not that I was afraid.
I just didn't know if you were going to continue and I didn't want to put any stops on you.
I just didn't want to say anything.
I thought OK, let's just It's interesting coming from my mother, because my sisters will agree.
My mother's not at all scared to hurt my feelings.
Like, she's the mother that says like, you know, you're get a little chubby.
No, no, for real.
Like, hated all of our boyfriends, even our current husbands, like, walking down the aisle going, you know, you don't have to do this.
So it's just interesting my mother you know, spent her whole life in Scientology, took out mortgages against her house to pay for Scientology, and went all the way up to the top of Scientology.
And then it was still like, well, if Leah wants to do it.
Was it more of like a like, a pride thing? Like, I put so much into this? Do you know what I think it is? What? I think it was honestly that there was a piece of her that still believed in Scientology.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, OK.
I think you put your finger on that.
But I think it also bumps into another thing, which is you get ingrained with ideas of how to think, and what is the appropriate thing to do and say in every circumstance in life.
Being raised as Scientologist or being heavily involved in Scientology, it teaches you how to deal with everything you never think for yourself.
Despite their slogan, the truth is that you have pre-programmed way of addressing everything.
And I was going to answer your original question Ray, with saying I think that the biggest thing about leaving Scientology is trying to figure out what's your own thought and what's the ingrained thought process that you have had hammered into you That's one of my questions.
Yeah, how do you know the difference? How do you know difference? I don't know that you do know the difference, at least to begin with, but you start finding out by interaction with normal people.
Right.
I'm serious.
When you interact with Scientologists, you know what you're going to get back.
And you know what their reaction is going to be.
You know what's acceptable, what's unacceptable.
And you start finding out when you interact with normal people in the world, hm, maybe that wasn't such a bright way of dealing with things? Or maybe that wasn't really that wasn't really a truth that you have been hammered into this is the truth.
This is what's true! This is what's right! So are you all trying actively in some way trying to unlearn what you learned from Scientology? Yeah.
And how do you actually do that? Trial and error.
It's so true.
But when I first left, it was like, the first week that I had nothing to do with the church and I found myself walking around the house.
What am I to do now? What am I going to do? It was like this empty space.
And then occasionally you would say to me here, why don't you read this book.
And even it was a self-help book.
And I was like, it was really hard for me to read these books.
But I did start reading them.
And you actually find that you can learn and be helped with your own self-awareness through these.
I felt like I wasted a lot of time in the church.
And I feel like I wasted a lot of years not creating with my family, not and specifically with her I don't know if I'm getting off track here but I felt like me cry alienated her.
I feel like I didn't have a relationship with my grandkids that I could have had, with her kids.
I'm just going to hand these out now.
There's one for you, Vicki.
Christy, this is for the future.
Here you go.
Right, you never know.
Do you guys need any? You good? Cameras? Now Nicole, what does that make you emotional? Yeah, I guess it just it because there was a lot of time missed, you know.
And so with me not really doing Scientology, yeah, I miss a lot of time with my family because of not because I know that that's where she was at.
You know, and you know, I moved out of state because I felt the pressures of Scientology.
And I just didn't want that.
I just wanted to be with my I wanted my family to be family.
You know, so it just kind of validates you know, like, thank you for saying that.
You know what I mean? It's I think that that's what it is for me.
You know, it's an unfortunate part of being a Scientologist that is very conditional love.
And that's between mother and daughter you know, sisters.
You know, our relationship with her and our stepfather was always contingent it seemed on Scientology.
You know, we were not really doing the right thing if we weren't studying Scientology, going to Scientology every day.
And that message growing up that way is conditional love.
And for most families that is 100% the case.
As with Mike, as with Christy, as with thousands of people like them who've lost their families, because they left.
It was 100% conditional.
Whatever they say, if you are now bad, if you are now a suppressive person, then we are going to disconnect for sure.
No question.
I don't think there's a Scientologist in the world who is a real Scientologist that isn't and doesn't operate that way.
If you are a good Scientologist and someone from the organization tells you this person is bad, that's it.
You're not questioning it.
That's exactly what happened on the phone with my mother, I said Mom are you going to disconnect from me? And she said well, if they tell me to.
If they tell me to, then I am.
And it's like, you have to do what you're told to stay in good standing with the church.
It's just part of the culture of Scientology.
And then the effects of that stays with you.
As you see, we are all very emotional at the drop of a hat and because it's just beneath.
It's right there.
What I think is important to talk about, and I don't know if this is my way of diverting attention off of me, is that because we have our families here.
And it's not really about us.
You're smiling because you're like no, bitch.
I'm going to get you.
I wanted to know how long before the diversions started.
But OK.
Well I think you've been you guys have been so good about this, because you really want it to be about how other people have been affected.
And you didn't want this show to be about the two of you and make it about you.
And I think you've done a really great job with that.
But I also think it's good for them to know what we see.
You know, like, one of the things for me is like, I feel so bad for Mom.
Oh gosh.
I'm so emotional, sorry.
I am the most emotional one out of all of us.
That might just be right now.
It's coming.
No, it's because she's the most human.
She's the least Scientologic of the whole group.
But it's like there's a piece of her heart that is so broken.
And I just I feel bad for her, you know? I do.
30 years of her friends you know, and I feel so bad when she runs into them in the store and they just ignore her, or they're like hello.
You know? I just feel bad.
And I feel the same thing for you.
Because I know you run into people.
And it's like, that's so heartbreaking for me, because I mean, I had people writing me going, hey, I know we're really good friends, but until your sister is in better standing, I have to unfriend you on Facebook.
And I'm like, whatever.
Like, thank you.
Make room for more.
That's all you guys had you know, as far as friends, because you didn't really have friends outside of Scientology.
Very oftentimes my mother will say I miss my friends, you know.
That's after I have a dream about them and I wake up emotional.
And she thinks they're reaching out to her in the spiritual world.
So then she tries to reach out to them.
And I tell her, don't do it.
You're only going to kill yourself.
It's going to kill you to reach out to your friends on Facebook for them to just block you or say they don't want nothing to do with you.
What's been the hardest thing for you to let go Scientology world? Well, it's the fight, you know.
It's the you never you're never right in Scientology.
You're always wrong, you know.
You're never good enough.
You're never doing enough.
The main tone of a Scientologist is anger because they have us what they call a tone scale.
And this tone scale is taught to every Scientologist, and it's ingrained in everybody's head that below a certain point means death.
And it just so happens that they use the anger part, which is in the middle, as anything at anger and above is good.
It's OK to be physical with other Scientologists, especially Sea Org members, to be beating each other.
It's very normal to be talking, yelling, demanding, you're abusive.
You know you know, they do drills that are very I think, starting at five, where it's called bull baiting.
And you would sit in front of another person and every Scientologist does this where a grown up is sitting across from you saying sexual things, yelling and screaming this close to your face.
And if you react to it, you have to keep doing it until you're what's called flat on it.
So they teach you not to react to being abused.
They teach you not to react to you know, being harmed basically.
If you react to things like that, a Scientologist will look at you and go what the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah.
They'll just say get it together.
I guess you know, to that degree, I still have some of that.
Like, I'm listening to now, and you go well what haven't you given up? And to some degree, I have to say that that's still with me.
Where are you reacting? You're also taught like, Mike and I were in the Sea Org.
So in the Sea Org you're taught make it go right.
Figure it out.
Whatever it takes, get it done.
Get the job done and nothing else is acceptable.
You have to have a balance.
And when you leave Scientology, your balance is like, not you don't have a balance.
It's like it all has to get done now.
We have to be busy.
Everything has to go, go, go.
No brakes.
Don't stop.
What do you doing? How come you're sitting down? Let's go.
Like, that's normal Scientology like, Sea Org member attitude.
And what is the reaction from people when that from people who were not Scientologists when you're doing that? They don't get it.
First of all, I'm tired.
And we're like, you're tired? Shut the fuck up.
You're tired.
Get it fucking done.
Like, stay up all night.
You stay up all night and you get it done.
Don't give me an excuse.
Don't give me bullshit.
And it's just that mentality is hard to let go of.
And you're asking us you know, on a deeper level, what is it? And there is an anger and there is a fight type mentality that you're always wrong.
And so in the real world, you're still fighting.
You're still fighting to be right.
You're still fighting to be heard.
You're still fighting.
You're fighting everybody, because no one ever fought for you.
You never had your mother or father going absolutely not is my daughter going to be in the Sea Org.
Absolutely not.
Well, Mike Rinder you know, Mike, our son, be being beaten or go on a ship at his young age.
Absolutely not.
And that's in the Sea Org and that's outside the Sea Org.
And so you get kind of raised with this you're not good enough thing.
And so you fight for shit that makes no sense.
And you never have to deal with your demons in that way, you know.
And that side of you that's confrontational and a fighter and somebody who's willing to bury somebody, you know, is a very is something in Scientology that's very much validated.
So is the anger is it possible that the anger that you didn't exhibit of course, it's learned behavior, but is it also masking the pain of the fact that no one has stood up for you? Probably.
I think you get used to being treated a certain way within the church.
And you feel like shit most of the time if you're not contributing money, If you're not doing enough time, if you're not achieving certain goals in Scientology, if you're not somewhere on the bridge.
So you just don't get appreciated or acknowledged unless you were doing something astronomical.
And then your self-worth goes down.
So then you get used to being treated like that, that you accept crumbles of good things from people, instead of being like, no.
I'm worth a lot more than that.
Eff off Basically.
So then that part of the aftermath is you don't have empathy and compassion for yourself.
That gets squashed over time.
Your empathy and your compassion is not something that Scientology validates.
That's where I wanted to go too.
Or values.
Because I know I know Vicki, you had mentioned that one of the hardest things to let go is the idea that people pull bad things in to themselves.
And so, you lose the compassion the ability to be compassionate.
And you struggle with that.
Right.
It's like what you said in the beginning, how you feel like anything that happens to you is because you created it or did something wrong.
So I feel because of that, I don't have compassion for others.
Yeah, I think that's very true.
And I think the other thing that everybody deals with too, getting out, is and you know, including myself, is that anything bad that happens to us is because we're not in Scientology.
Does that that comes into your head now? Yes.
Yes.
I think that there's layers and layers of things that we don't know who we are.
You asked you know, do you know who you are 100%? No, you don't.
Let's move on to Christy and Mike for a second, because they lost all of their family.
Like, they're here this week to film this show.
And Christy was saying today at my house that this was the first time that they've left their son Jeff with somebody else.
And Christy was saying you know, we don't have grandparents to give our kid to.
And Mike's family is not in his life.
And so there is an aftermath to all of them.
When you left the when you left the Sea Org, you lost contact with your mother because she disconnected from you.
Then you lost your mother because she passed away.
And you didn't even know that that had happened because Scientology doesn't see Mike as human to call him and contact him to let them know.
And his Scientology siblings wouldn't call him either.
You have zero contact with your brother.
Correct.
And who else? Sister, nieces, nephews, children.
They'll never know Mike Rinder.
Or your children.
They'll never know Christy.
They'll never know like, Christy, right? You have family here, right? Your mom is here? My mom and my brother and sister.
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I know.
It's sad.
And the same thing happened when her father passed away, which was just relatively recently.
This is what I don't think people really understand is that you know, I couldn't imagine being in LA with my daughter, and not being able to go see my mother.
Or having to explain to my daughter oh, you can't see grandma, you know.
Or you can't see your aunts, you know.
That's the aftermath of this cult really truly, is this pain that's here every day.
And this is by choice.
This is not because of death.
How do you cope with that? Because They don't! You know, Christy is sitting there crying.
Mike doesn't really know how to deal with that.
And this, you're seeing the effects you know what I mean, of that she feels bad that she's crying, and that she's upset about it.
And that's what Scientology has taught her.
Let's take a break.
We're going to take a break everybody.
She seemed a little touchy.
You're here, here in LA.
How does it feel with your mom and sister here and you can't get to see them? You mentioned it, and it just immediately breaks my heart.
Because again, I can't do that.
I know.
And I forget like, what watch that how hard that is.
I couldn't imagine not going to my sister's house.
Going fuck you.
And last time we were here, last summer, I said Mike, do you think we should go? Do you think we should try? And we didn't.
And my dad died.
And it was like, it was like, regret.
Like, we should have tried one more time.
But that's not on you.
Nothing it wouldn't have been any different, but I still think about it.
I still think why didn't I try it one more time before he died? And I didn't know he was going to die, but he did, you know? It was not something that you could have controlled.
It's not something that you could have controlled.
Yeah.
But you're right.
Like, I should feel that way.
But of course, I blame myself.
Or I feel some kind of guilt.
You had no control.
Because not only that, if you would have went Christy, it would have even been worse that he was dying and he's said that.
Right, yeah.
Because in his Scientology mind, he would have them summoning up his attorney and Thank you, Leah.
I love you.
Christy was telling me that story of the pain of not seeing her dad before he passed away, not being able to see her mom.
You know, what becomes even more clear, Scientology doesn't nurture not only familial relationships you know, but friendships and compassion, hugging each other, saying I understand how you feel.
And this is real, this is a real pain that you're having.
This is something that's very valid.
It's not normal in Scientology.
You learn that sympathy is a bad thing.
Like, there are policies.
There are things written about sympathy that sympathy is not a good thing.
You shouldn't have sympathy for other people.
And what I was telling Christy is I don't think you should ever get over the death of your father.
I don't know that that's OK.
Like, I wouldn't be OK with the death of my mother, you know.
I wouldn't.
So I don't know that it would be a day where I'm like, I'm good with it.
You know, in Scientology you're taught that a person dies, they're getting another body.
They're being born into another body like, as we speak.
So knock all that shit off.
That's what you would be told if you were crying about the loss of your mother or father.
So it's relearning you know, the aftermath of relearning who you are.
Since this didn't happen to us, I'm curious like, what would happen if you actually went and saw your mother today? What would she do? Hide.
We tried.
Like, I went to her house when I had my son in my arms.
He was six months old.
So that was five year 5 and 1/2 years ago I went to my parents' house in Los Angeles.
I knocked on the door.
I walked all around the property.
I looked in the windows.
I called their names.
I think they knew we were coming because there was a lot of PIs following us, private investigators following us that day.
And they probably told my dad not to be available, and made sure to fly my mom away, because my mom would be more vulnerable.
So they weren't there.
So I left a note.
I gave them my phone number.
I said I'm in town.
I'm here.
I was like, shivering.
I was shaking with fear.
And the fear of rejection, of what if I open the door and they and they see me and slam the door in my face.
Like, is that going to be more painful? Is it worth it? Is it worth the pain of even trying? Or is it better to just give up and move on because it hurts so much to try and get rejected? The main thing for me is the loss of my family.
That is the hardest part.
I mean, that is the ultimate sacrifice that I made for walking away is losing my father, my mother, my brother and sister and all of my friends.
There is no getting it back.
Like, I have very little hope that I will ever see any of them again ever.
And that is a huge loss.
I mean, it's over.
Like, my dad is my dad died in January.
And we weren't ever able to reconcile before that happened.
And there's no chance now of it ever happening.
So that was my greatest fear and it came true.
Shannon was born and raised as a Scientologist, did not value anything with Scientology.
And so she really didn't get an education.
I had tried to bribe her into going to college.
For every year you go to college, I'll send you anywhere in the world you know, first class.
That's what I could offer you.
And she instead joined Scientology to work for Scientology.
And it was very hard to break her out.
And so when you had that opportunity, you didn't take it because? The college? Yeah.
I don't think I believed in myself enough.
I didn't think I was maybe smart enough at the time, because I've always been to Scientology schools.
And my education was kind of crap.
I just had to discover who I am for real.
I'm finding my own opinion, just to take back my own power and know that I can survive by myself and I don't need the church for that.
But also Shannon, it's bigger than that.
It's you know, you're going to school for the first time and you're getting straight A's, you know.
And you're surprising yourself.
Like, you text us every time you take a test.
And then you text us every time you get the test back.
And you go I got an A+.
And I think that's shocking to you.
It is shocking! Yeah, but I think you're seeing now like, hey, I am somebody.
Because for the first time, you're thinking for yourself.
I think that's, for everybody across the board, is everybody is finally thinking for themselves, not necessarily making all the right choices.
You know, that's what life is.
You know, that's what experience is.
But we weren't able to have experiences.
Yeah, make mistakes and not be punished for it.
But you learn from it.
And the call for you, I mean, this has to be 100% vindication for you, because for most of your life, like Mom said, you've been kind of put out because you weren't one of us.
Yeah.
And I remember you were on a radio show not too long ago in Minneapolis, and you said Nick was the smart one.
And I literally fell to my knees crying, because I just felt like, oh my gosh.
Like, you know, to hear you say that was huge for me.
Why was it important for you to hear it specifically from Leah? I don't know, because I guess when she said that, it just I don't know.
I think it's because it's hard with these two sometimes, no offense.
But you can be really hard and judge.
Sorry, not I know how compassionate you are and how much you actually do feel.
But in the church, I even felt if I'm not on course or if I'm not there all the time and getting up the bridge, we're not as good as you.
Even if we didn't want to, we were just like, it was kind of a way to get your guy's approval.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that's why it made you fall to your knees and get emotional, is because you finally felt validated.
Yeah, it was.
It was just a validation of not like, I knew I was right, but like, I knew I was right.
Like you're not the outcast sister anymore.
Yeah! It made me feel like I was part of the family again.
Like, oh, we really are family.
I think that that's really what it was for me.
But it was it meant the world to hear you say that.
And you know, my husband knew that is exactly where I would be, that I would be on the floor in a mess when he heard.
You know, he came in and he just met me on the floor and was just hugging me.
Like, I know that just meant everything to you.
And it just did! It just switched everything! Knock it off now.
Stop crying.
Well, this is my aftermath.
What can I say? This is it right here.
To listen to what you went through, where I put like, I say to you this is what I put you through.
And I feel so terrible.
And you'll say to me but Mom, you don't need to feel bad.
What do you say to me? You don't need to feel bad.
Look at where we are now? I know that when I talk to you, it helps.
But as a mother But as a mother As a mother But as a mother I feel like I have failed you all.
But Mom, that's that's But I know.
I know what you're saying, and it makes total sense.
But I still have to live with that thought.
You know? I think you go through things for a reason.
And now we're learning a big life lesson to enjoy family, to stay loyal, and to live life and forgiveness and moving forward.
Well, I think I need deprogramming.
And I'm not kidding.
Go to therapy Mom! Because I mean, it's like, that these feelings it's like, I'm hearing them, you know.
And to some degree, I'm feeling them.
But I don't feel like I'm feeling them to the degree that I should.
Because I feel maybe it's still I still have it.
And all my thoughts are still engrossed in the church, but not realizing that I'm still thinking with that technology.
This was just following on earlier from Christy's story about trying to see her parents when we came to LA, we also went to Australia to try and see my mother when she was in a nursing home.
And when we got there, she had been whisked away.
I knew that that was going to be the last time I was going to have an opportunity to see my mother.
And it was sort of devastating that the lengths that Scientology would go to just to prevent me or prevent her from seeing me and meeting Christy.
Like, they flew her out of state, an 80-year-old woman who'd had a heart transplant who was in a nursing home, an assisted living facility.
And they got her out of there to avoid me showing up to say hello and giving her a kiss on the forehead and say I love you.
The most difficult thing for me in the aftermath of Scientology is living with the fact that I put my children in the position that they're in, and that they have no choice and have never had a choice.
And that's the sort of desperate fight that I feel I have to engage in.
And you talk about wanting to fight.
I want to fight about that.
I don't I don't feel I can walk away from doing everything I can to change that.
And all the other things to me, apart from my family now, are things to deal with and things to overcome, and to come to try and understand myself, and understand how I react to things and why I react to them.
But the thing that I can't get over is that.
And the thing that I can't I can't just put behind me is that, because they are there sort of in my mind every day.
And then when I see my daughter, I don't feel hatred toward her or upset, other than I'm so sorry that I put you where you are, and that you, even even more than me, you never had a chance.
That's the the real aftermath to me.
That scar and that wound is an open wound that just doesn't go away.
That's understandable.
That's understandable.
What is your aftermath? Yeah, what's your aftermath? I think it's evident.
I mean, this whole show is your aftermath.
Exactly.
And we and we deal with it, you know, not only with our own pain, our own family's pain, but we deal with contributors every day, with dealing with their aftermath of Scientology.
And it's not like they just go away.
Like, we know all the people who are devastated by Scientology, either by losing a family member you know, through death, and there was disconnection before that, or having their family destroyed and their son or daughter lives down the street from them.
You know, dealing with that every day.
When the cameras turn off, these people don't have their sons and daughters.
They don't have their, you know, family.
They don't have their dad anymore.
You know, so it's we deal with this every day.
You know, I'm in a heightened state of emotion every day of my life doing this program, you know.
And so has Mike.
Like, we leave here and we're like, drained from it, we're disgusted by it, we're enraged by it.
You know what I mean? It's it's a lot.
It's a, lot but you know, it's worth it.
I hear that.
And I absolutely agree 100% with you.
But your response was about other people.
What is your personal aftermath? Our question is you.
What is your personal aftermath? I mean, I think I've said it.
I think I've said that.
I still, like everybody else, trying to find my way.
Finding out who what I really am about.
You know, is that me? Or is that Scientology? We're so often taught to appear one way, but really secretly, we're another way.
I think people go through that when all of a sudden single after 50 years.
They start to find out who they are.
And you know, and find out who you really are is not something that you do overnight.
That's part of that's part of getting out of any bad relationship.
And it's not just about Scientology.
It's not just about exposing the abuse of Scientology, but understand coming out, thinking that we were doing all these amazing things in.
Coming out going wait, there's a lot of work to do.
There's a big piece of me that feels I'm behind now, 35 years.
You know, you think of yourself as up here.
And then you get in the real world and you're like, you ain't doing shit.
And you're never taught to enjoy anything, you know.
It's like, I'm not really I don't enjoy anything, you know, because of all of us are raised to believe that if you're not working or doing something, you're being a bum.
And there's things to do in the world.
And you know, it's very hard for me to relax.
It's very hard for me to feel like I deserve to be sitting around doing nothing.
And that's like, all that I would want, is just to be somewhere with all of us together doing nothing, but just being.
But there is this guilt of like, not really enjoying or what should you be doing something you should be doing something about this.
You should be doing something about the situation.
And so there that's also part of the aftermath of being in something like that.
How does the experience of Scientology affect the way you parent now? Well, I'm the opposite.
You know, I'm pushing education on her.
And she's like, I might not want to go to school.
And I'm like Now she says it as a joke to get a rise out of me.
But it's not like, I don't find it funny in any way, shape, or form.
I don't treat her as a spirit in a little body.
I treat her like a child.
You know, that's just I'm just the opposite of what a Scientology mother would be.
And Mike, the first thing for me is to make sure he knows that Scientology is bad.
I'm serious.
And I feel like for me, I don't want my kids to ever feel like they're not wanted.
You know, like, that's a very big thing for me.
I think the biggest thing, and I think we'll all agree, is the love, is the unconditional love is that we all say we love you.
Like, it's a constant thing.
You know, even when she is being her 14-year-old girl self, I always am very clear about I love you.
I want you to know that I love you, no matter what.
No matter what, I love you.
Yeah, that is a much better answer than mine.
And that's something that we were not taught in Scientology.
And I think that's an important message that we now send our children that we love you no matter what you are.
I think my kid's going to be fucked up no matter what, because that's kind of what you do as a parent.
It's your job that they grow up and they blame you for everything.
That's the cycle.
That's life.
It's the circle of life.
But my only hope is that you find a way to find that same love for yourselves, and that same worthiness for yourselves, because that seems like that's what's missing in all of this.
In all of this aftermath is this inability to look at yourself and say with the same words that you would give any person who you have unconditional love for, you'd apply that for yourself.
Absolutely.
I agree.
But I think you know everybody here is a survivor.
Even though you're seeing the tears and you're seeing the pain, everybody's surviving.
We have different philosophies.
You know, vulnerability for me is strength, you know.
So I think that that is what has been displayed here more than anything.
You would never hear that in Scientology.
And when you said it, like, it hit me, and like, wow.
Do you know what I mean? Because that you don't feel that way in Scientology.
You don't feel that you can be vulnerable.
And I I agree with you.
I think that is how it should be, that it should be strength.
But if you think about it, that takes great courage.
I went to an actual therapist.
And I'm like, what was the big deal? This is amazing! I love therapy! I'm like, why don't more people do this? I think everybody's fricking crazy and should be in therapy, especially in LA.
You know, the good news is you know, I think as time goes on and more Scientologists get out, more Scientologists seek therapy, which not a lot do I highly recommend it, because you could keep yourself in that very damaged place if you don't.
You need to deal with the pain.
Well, I think you helped a lot of people today.
I don't know, Ray.
Showing your heart is always a wonderful thing.
And that's what you did today.
That's a great thing.
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you all.