The Staircase (2004) s01e07 Episode Script
The Blowpoke Returns
Believe it or not, we've been trying this case for four months today.
It started May 5th, it's September 5th.
We're not paying any more money, so forget about it.
So, actually the reason for this The reason for this meeting is so everyone knows we're quitting.
- We We did the cross.
- Done your part.
That's right.
Hey, I can't do anymore, I'm tired.
Alright, so Um this, to me, is not an academic exercise at all, because I have a real question in my mind about A, whether we should put on any evidence at all, and B, if we should put on evidence, what it should be.
The one thing I haveabsolutely no doubt in my mind about in this particular topic is that you shouldn't testify.
I don't see any upside to that and I see lots of downsides, but obviously, Mike, this is your decision.
This is your life.
Whether you should testify is your call, ultimately.
So, let's start with Bill and just go around the table, and hear what people have to say.
First of all, I think I would definitely put on a defense, that's the first issue that we need to decide.
I think there's a couple of jurors who I think who are leaning to a conviction at this point.
And I think that the experts that we've hired and the theories that they've come up with and the way they explain things are so compelling that it may shift those two jurors.
So, I think we need to help some of these jurors along.
- Todd.
- Clearly you need a defense.
Prior to Radisch's testimony, I feel that everybody would've voted not guilty.
Radisch's testimony was quite effective with at least three jurors, notably Rogers.
And it will take medical testimony to get her back on the not guilty side.
- OK.
Ron? - We're in a hell of a good position just with the prosecution's evidence in.
Would we get an acquittal? I don't know.
I believe we definitely would get a hung jury.
Then you get a hung lawyer.
'Cause I'm not going through this again.
Sorry, Mike.
I just don't see a conviction, but I see a hung jury at this point.
I don't see an acquittal.
- OK.
- And that's a gamble that we have to take.
I want to say something else, and that is that you are not universally liked.
I know that may come as a great shock to you.
I think there's a couple of people on the jury that actually don't like you very much.
You are perceived as very slick.
You know, very oily, by them, I think.
You know, it's the old theme: he's got a lot of money, most of which we've given to you.
And we've hired high-powered defense to get him off.
Well, you're not going to have permission to put that particular segment in the film.
Because one of David Because of one of David's overriding morals for every day of his life that I've known him, has been for everyone to love him all the time.
In that case, can I be excused now? Um Tom.
One of the burdens of putting on defense is you lose some of the reasonable doubt argument you otherwise have.
If you put experts on you are under some burden to prove something, and it becomes a little bit more of an equal match.
 I think Radisch, she's got some very basic things she says that no cross can take away.
Somebody else has to come and take away.
These seven lacerations or seven separate blows? But you got to have somebody else explain either how that can happen or that they aren't seven impacts.
So, I think there's probably some basic stuff, at least on the medicine, - that needs to be answered.
- Mike.
I agree that we need a defense, if only to answer some of the questions that Radisch raised and to fill in a couple of the holes that the people might have.
- OK.
OK.
- But not much.
I mean, here's the truth.
The two or three points the jury's going to trip the most on is the number of lacerations.
How the fuck do you get these many lacerations in these locations from falling down the stairs? - That was a main thing - The only thing you got to prove, as far as I'm concerned, is that it wasn't that damn blow poke, They have fucking married themselves - Yeah, they are.
- I know.
- So therefore - Deborah Radisch I mean, it's like Super Glue at this point, I mean, it - It was hot solid - The bottom line is that I think, you know, I can get up there in closing argument and say, "Let's just cut to the chase here.
If you have a reasonable doubt about whether that blow poke was in the house on December 9th, 2001, it's not guilty.
" No, no, we need a Johnnie Cochran phrase.
- I've got one.
- What is it? I've got a better one.
If it don't blow, he must go.
If it ain't the poke If it ain't the poke, he ain't the bloke.
If he ain't the poke, he's not going to the poke.
How about Deaver's got no hair and the proof ain't there? Welcome again.
Nice to see you.
I'm tired.
I'm exhausted.
This is my brother.
- My brother Bill.
- How are you? - And my son Todd.
- Hi, Henry.
Nice to meet you.
- And my son Todd.
- Hi.
Deaver says, "All going same direction.
" No, there's totally two different directions.
- Opposite directions.
- Right.
These two drops, opposite direction.
Also, different angles.
Right.
- There's one here.
- This is a - A drop here.
- Those are these two - are the same direction.
- Right.
Deaver says all of these.
This, this, that, and that all cast-off from a blow over here.
- From the same - Same event.
Same event.
Impossible.
- Should be 84.
Yeah.
- Eighty four exactly.
Eighty four.
- Eighty four, huh? - Now, they say he's here.
Five inches off this.
How do you end swinging the blow poke from over there, - from outside? - It's almost impossible.
So, you can swing from the inside and we should see cast-off spatter.
Right.
Five inches.
- Right.
- Let me do that then.
She is five feet two, sixty-two inches.
That's just 62 inches.
Hit here.
So, that can cause a multi-fracture now.
- Multi-laceration? - Laceration now.
And then she tried to somehow, dizzy and fall, sit here, maybe fall here.
And coughing.
Breathing, OK? That's why all the spatter.
Somehow, later, the shoulder touch here.
Probably can't get support, that's why you have so many fingerprints here on the side.
Just like this.
Here, more likely, just she already on the ground.
 Like this.
- Something like that.
- Right.
- OK? Meanwhile, coughing - Right.
bleeding, so Yeah, exactly.
- So, that's why that's the shadowy effect.
- Right.
You know, the bottom line here is accidental fall.
It's not consistent with a beating.
That's the bottom line.
Looks like a long night.
I think I want to start with, "Are you aware that Agent Deaver has given this jury the opinion that the blood staining in that stairway indicates indicates it's a beating?" "Yes, I know that.
" "Do you agree with that?" "No.
" "Do you have an opinion as to whether it's more consistent with the beating or more consistent with an accident?" "Yes.
" That's the last question.
Well, I'm going to come back You want to say that? OK.
Because you have to build up all these lines.
Why you want to start with Just so the jury understands that you're there to disagree with him.
You don't have to have them understand.
I'm here, basically disagree.
If I If I agree, I don't show up.
That shows the direction.
Do you see what I mean? That's how we know which direction.
And now we're going to move into medium velocity.
That's a cast-off pattern.
The cast-off pattern, it changes along the line.
The ratio lends a width.
You can't just, based on one drop, say that's a cast-off.
Can be any possibility.
Henry, they're gonna send me in the morning.
It's good.
It's good.
- Just that little much hair.
- That much hair did all that? Nah.
No, this hair Each time, you see? - You see that? - Yeah.
What would it would it be coughing? Hm? - What's for the coughing? - Ink.
- Come on.
- Ketchup.
Or Jello.
You have your choice.
OK, Ron, you do it.
See, maybe your cough is better than mine.
- Which one is ketchup? - This is ketchup.
You swallow it! Now I got to get my carpet cleaned! That's a bad experiment.
Right.
44 Now, if something in motion.
Can you hold this? I hope this it's not a new suit.
Let's say I have a weapon.
Weapon have some blood here.
I got you.
Now, you have a cast-off pattern.
Cast-off pattern, as you can see, is a line of formation.
You'll have to look at the totality.
You can't just pick one, say that's the one.
When I look at the staircase ceiling, as you probably recall, it has a cat picture on the north wall, above the picture, and nothing on the higher point of this area.
So, if an individual with a weapon, say 40 inches long, hitting I should see something on the ceiling, cast-off pattern.
Some maybe argue, say, could be chop the weapon a little bit.
But if you do that, you very difficult not to get some blood spatter on whoever suspect's clothing.
Focusing on that for a second, did you inspect Mr.
Peterson's shirt? Yes, I did inspect Michael Peterson's shirt.
It's a dark blue shirt.
 It's very difficult to see with naked eyes.
So what we did, use a higher magnification and use light sources, and tried to look at any area, see any spatter or not.
I did not find any blood spatter.
Did you observe anything in the scene that was inconsistent with Kathleen Peterson having died from an accident in that stairway? When we look at a blood spatter pattern, we have to look at the totality, the whole pattern, instead of jumping to focus on one small drop.
Just like you go to a forest, you want to see the whole forest first, before we examine individual trees.
Location one, we can see this area contact.
That's another contact, and coming downwards.
The blood goes downwards.
We have some spatter in this area, which photo did not really show up.
Some spatter on the wall, too.
This consistent with Kathleen.
Head more likely hit the moulding, have some spatter.
Now, location number two.
Here the majority, this portion of it, is a multiple deposit of stains, smear, spatter, wipe and swipe pattern.
The rest of that, we see spatter goes all different directions.
Multiple, as I say, approximately four thousand, or more.
So, in a beating, you don't create that much blood spatter.
This, based on my experience, has to be multiple origin.
Coughing, shaking her hair, shaking her hand, moving around.
Maybe some impact spatter there, but everything is all together.
Dr.
Lee, based on your education and your training and your experience and on your own observations and findings in this case, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty as to whether the totality of the evidence in this case, from the scene, is more consistent with a beating or is more consistent with an accident? It's more consistent with an accident.
That's all I have.
Thank you, Doctor.
Let's take a 15-minute break.
Now do you recall having a series of conversations with Agent Deaver after having looked at the model and seeing the targets that he created - and looking at the test closely? - I did have some conversations with him.
Do you recall telling him that you had traveled around the United States and that this was some of the best work that you had seen? I tell him something, "He did some good work.
" And the model is beautiful, but the model did not prove anything.
Let me show a copy of your book.
You recall giving him a copy of your book? Yes, I generally give everybody a copy of book.
 I want them to learn.
Do you recall signing an inscription with a note to Agent Deaver, - in this book when you were there? - Yes.
If you would, please, read what the note says.
It says "To Duane Deaver, one of the best.
Keep up with your good work.
With warm regards, Henry Lee.
" You probably found thousands of these sent.
But you wouldn't give it to him unless you had felt that way, would you? No, no, I give everybody courtesy, that's Chinese culture.
I went to his place.
He extended a courtesy, let me see what he has.
That's my upbringing, respect other people.
I give him a book.
I cannot write, say, "You're" I don't want to say.
You can't write on a book, say somebody, "You totally wrong," or something.
What are you going to write? His conclusion is wrong, but he tried very hard.
I can't say he didn't try to do good work.
Agent Deaver did a lot of work.
So, you're agreeing then that he did good work? I did What do you want me to say? "He did lousy work," on a book? I cannot say that.
Just like I give Mr.
Rudolf a book, I say, "You're one of the best attorneys.
" But he's lousy and I still give him that book, and - Now, based on all that you saw - Yes.
and all that you did, or all that you didn't do, is it your testimony before this jury that you can absolutely, conclusively exclude that Kathleen Peterson was beaten on her head? I say my conclusion is more consistent with an accidental falling.
But you can't exclude that she was beaten, - based on all you did - Nobody can't exclude everything.
But the pattern tells me, the indications, everything more consistent as an accident.
Court TV called me.
And they want some documents you said you have, - I guess it's from this library stuff.
- Yeah.
Well, I guess they're too lazy to do all the work you've done.
- Well, I - Yeah.
This has taken a lot of work.
Nobody wanted to go through these boxes.
I'm not giving her everything, only the one that I mentioned to her.
Unless she does something really nice for me.
And then I'll give her the one I gave to Jim Hardin today.
Well, she bought you a very nice dinner.
Yeah, yeah.
That's true, But I didn't ask her to.
That's true.
Let me see what it is.
I can probably see as much Four of 11.
Great.
Boy, this is nicely organized.
What I find really amazing about all this is that he kept so much of his life from such a young age that he I guess he is narcissistic.
"You cannot kill and be unaffected.
Like an animal who first tastes blood, so is a man who kills.
He is forever disposed to that thirst.
When he sees how simple is the act.
he is forever disposed to that thirst.
Perhaps he will never kill again or ever want to, but always in his mind is the knowledge of the act.
The awareness of its simplicity.
The peculiar remember reminder of elation, sexuality that accompanied the deed and, too, that he was licensed, rewarded, or simply never caught.
" Where the heck was that published? This See this, he talks about frizzle in here.
This is This is his A Time of War book.
- I'll put it back with the others.
- Oh no, that's I don't know why it stuck with this, but that's where I found it.
Death and sexuality are a bit of I copied one of these things here that says sex and violence are always intertwined in his books.
And believe me, they are.
Well But he's been adding to this periodically.
Well, if you read through it, you'll see there's some homosexual military stuff.
OK.
It's like in everything he writes.
Is the word "autobiography" used on it in any place? - No.
- No.
You don't actually see that word? Does he refer to himself in first person singular? - First person.
- First person, OK.
He's writing about himself.
I mean, he can come up with something else, but I sure think this one is him trying to figure what's wrong with him.
There's so many things in here that correspond with what I believe I know about Look.
I can't believe anything my brother-in-law tell us anymore, but what I thought I knew about his life, about him getting married, going off to Vietnam and certain other things, and that this one thing at the back Whoa.
I want it to be that he talks about himself.
This handwritten thing, he talks about that he's an aberrant personality, pure wicked, and incapable of moral action.
Well, I spent a lot of time reading his handwriting.
I'm getting to know it.
And so I thought, "Wow! He know's something's wrong with him, and he's trying to figure it out.
" And unfortunately took it out on my sister and some other people, but And the DA can't bring it in unless Michael gets on the stand, but there's not much else I can do.
I couldn't find anywhere where he talked about how he planned to seduce women and push them down the stairs and collect their money.
I was like I couldn't find that.
- Alright.
- I was hoping to.
OK, that's the one where he talks about happiness is murdering.
OK, so this is I don't think it's worth copying all this for Lori, but it's a short story set in Germany, and Here we go.
"Hell is not being happy, and being happy is what? Being happy is doing what you want.
Doing you want want is an exercise in pleasure.
Therefore, being happy is doing what gives you pleasure.
Loving, sacrificing, murdering.
" I could see the loving part.
- Possibly even sacrificing.
- Make two copies of that.
Two copies? I'll make three.
Could you tell the jury what biomechanics is? Well, the word in biomechanics, "mechanics" is the study offorces and motions on objects.
How how objects deform, how they tear, how they break, how they rupture.
When you focus it as biomechanics, it ends up being that same application to understand the deformations and the forces on the human body.
Have you supervised the creation of an exhibit? Could you describe to the members of the jury what it was and how it was created, in terms of what mathematics, what figures, what science went into it? Basically we had to reconstruct, graphically, the dimensions of the scene.
And we had to, from pictures of Mrs.
Peterson standing up, et cetera, to approximate her height and shape, and we had to use all that information to see if a scenario of a fall is possible.
And, in fact, if it's realistic.
And, in fact, if it's likely.
You know, this is an action that could happen any different way, but basically she lost her balance and fell straight back.
Nothing to restrain herself when she let go of the railing.
And how far did her head travel, did the simulation head travel before it hit that moulding? For this one, it's about 35 inches of arc.
And that's how you're figuring out the load this created that sufficient to cause the laceration, but not sufficient to cause a fracture? - Right.
- OK.
that door jamb, its shape, and how high she fell from that step could have accounted for this injury.
The left arm has a contact.
Right arm has a contact against the moulding.
Is there a bruise in that location? Yeah, these are the consistent elbow bruises.
Continuing with the contact points, the back of her head above the neck contacts that step.
You saw the first one from that first contact.
And this second one, resting on that step is responsible for these two.
From a sitting position, getting up, you see where her feet are.
She slips out, loses her balanced there.
If she were taller, if she were six foot five, she'd probably hit the east wall or something.
 I mean, you know, it's This is a dimensional issue.
So, falling from that point allows her to hit where she hits, because that's her characteristic length.
How many autopsies have you attended where the ultimate opinion of the pathologist was that an adult person died - as a result of a beating death? - No, I didn't do that.
None.
But not having had that experience and not being a forensic pathologist yourself, you've come into this courtroom and told this jury that Deborah Radisch, who actually performed the autopsy, is just dead wrong about this? What I'm saying is it's more likely that a fall impact caused this, and we have biomechanical evidence that an impact with a hollow cylinder wouldn't wouldn't do it.
She is wrong, if that's what she's saying.
Would you agree that a person that's actually there performing the work on a body, whether it be surgical work or work as a forensic pathologist, would you not agree that that person who can actually look at the body, feel the organs, feel the wounds, might have a better vantage point in making a final decision about a case than a person later on doing like what you did? I don't know how she could determine how those injuries occurred.
If she determined that those injuries were the cause of death, that's fine, but the causation, the mechanism by which these things occurred, whether they are cut with a knife, or a cylinder, or a flat object, or a fall, I would be surprised if Dr.
Radisch would be able to do that.
If I know medical training, they don't have causation training by mechanics.
My question was whether you would agree that a person that's actually there, whether it be a doctor, or a pathologist, or even someone in your position, actually there visualizing a person's body, looking at their wounds, feeling their wounds, measuring their wounds, looking at all the different things on the body, would you not agree that a person with that vantage point would really have an advantage in making a decision in a case like this? Making a decision The person right there with their hands right there.
- Not on the causation - With their eyes right there.
the event that caused the injuries.
I don't believe just by being there you have sufficient insight, knowledge, to determine how those injuries were caused.
OK.
Somebody, it was probably on Court TV, said, "The defense, they haven't injected a single bit of emotion in this case.
It's been science, science, science, but in fact this is two dead women.
" That is a problem.
From just from the point of view I'm talking about, which is the story.
That's what I do for a living, is tell stories.
And everybody wants to hear a story, from the time they were little babies.
This is the story.
And better a nice story than a scary story.
And I do see where we haven't told a story.
Except in the sense that, here are the forensics and that's cold, and whatnot.
But I don't know how you get into the story, anybody's story, without going into the other side, the bad stuff that everybody doesn't particularly want to have come out in their life, because for every good thing, there's if there's not at least a bad thing, somewhere back there there's a spin on it that can come back, I don't know.
- I don't know.
- It's a razor's edge.
I think the prosecution has used every dirty trick they can to do character assassination of Mike.
And they've they've taken every little point that could possibly been made and twisted it in a light most unfavorable.
You know, there has been a lot of emotional testimony there, and that it when there gets to be debates in the jury room between on the science, if you've got swing people, what do they fall back on? A lot of those people could fall back on emotion.
What can we do about that? They have no neighbors, nobody here within the community, you're well-known, Kathleen's well-known, nobody really from Nortel.
Caitlin, who they've had access to, has been in court every day.
If it would've been anything negative that any of these people could offer, they would've brought them in.
To me, that is strong.
The fact fact that they've had Caitlin there, and if there's anything within the relationship, they would've brought her in.
May I interject? Now is this something you can use? That you could turn to and say, "Look" - Yes.
- OK, alright.
So, the lack of what they put out, to me, is stronger than anything else.
And I think that if we open up the door to anything with your character, your ass is gone.
If the forensics were doing poorly, and we thought, "God, you know, we really need to give something to the people," than maybe you'd take a risk, but I think that the forensics, it's gone about as well as it can go, you know, other than somebody magically saying, "Seven lacerations disappear.
" Mm-hm.
Is there anybody who is in favor of calling any other witness, including you, Michael? Most importantly you.
No, because I am very realistic.
Nobody's insulting me.
I am a big boy and Hell, I have lived my life.
So, yes, I understand.
And it would be probably infinitely more negative in the long run, so.
.
drop it.
- OK.
- OK.
Meeting adjourned.
OK.
Go in there.
Go through the house.
They wanna look at the pool.
- Does that suit you, Dave? - Just tell Martin.
They can go in this way, do whatever they're gonna do, see the pool, and come exit this way.
Well Now, we put What we did was we put the made sure the chair was along that line there.
- 'Cause it was in the down position.
- Well, yeah.
And we tried to match it so that Remember, Deaver said it would match that.
Right.
OK.
- Let me go this way.
- Alright.
I know what to do, I'm going to look at it upstairs.
Levity.
- Put out all the family photos.
- That's right, absolutely.
- Put away all the porn, right? - That's right.
- Just trying to be - No, I'm only teasing.
I'm only teasing.
You did see the blow poke over there, right? Oh, I missed it.
I think I've seen enough.
We'll come back out this way.
A lot of them paid attention to the blood spatter, even kneeling down, looking down, squatting, looking at the dried blood that was on the moulding of the doorway.
So, they were really interested in the blood spatter.
Did the jurors touch anything? Well, they all took notes.
They would come out of the stairwell and take notes and go back in, get another look, then take more Did it seem like they wanted a spatial sense of whether there is room to - get the blow poke? - Well Like I said earlier, several of them stood in the stairwell, went up about three or four steps, and kind of waved their arms to kind of get a sense if you can fall back.
They seemed to be consuming a lot.
It's one thing to see it in a picture, I guess it's another thing to see it in person.
- How'd the blood look? - It was dry.
Ron? What are you doing today? I need you to come to Chapel Hill.
They found the blow poke.
No, the blow poke.
They found the blow poke.
Hi, Ron.
You fucked up a good golf game.
Well, sorry.
You could've gone to play golf, I didn't I had my golf bag on my shoulder, walking out the door.
- Did you really? - And then I saw Rudolf Myers.
Shouldn't have picked it up.
Shouldn't have picked it up, but I did.
Alright.
Let's start with me understanding completely what happened.
Alright? So take it from the top, Clayton.
I mean, give me give me the full rundown.
Well, I went downstairs.
First thing I did, I looked at the car.
I looked in the trunk.
And I looked around at the side 'cause that's where the tools are.
- OK.
- And then I came around to the other side and I just saw it there.
It was just right past the trunk, just sitting there.
OK.
So, then I went and got Margaret and brought her down, just to make sure, 'cause I couldn't believe it was just sitting right there.
Then we went upstairs and got Dad.
- What was he doing? - I was reading.
Almost going to sleep.
And, Margaret, you went to get him? Yeah, I just yelled, "Dad, we found the blow poke.
" Come on, let's go! We were terrified.
We were freaked that, you know Literally freaked as to what happened.
 So, we got Margaret got her video camera out.
I got the She got the tape recorder.
We were I called Tom by this time.
And, you know, if the cops show up, we're just going to "You can't come into this house until my attorney, who is" I thought you were going to show up on a motorcycle.
"appears.
" So, now you're waiting on Tom.
What are you doing while you're waiting on Tom? - We went in the den.
- OK.
And Todd said, "I wanna talk to you, Dad.
And I'm going to ask you.
Would you bet your life on that blow poke?" And I know exactly what he was doing and what he was saying.
That, "Dad, I know, you know, if there's any chance there's blood, or hair, or anything on that blow poke, I'll take that goddamned thing and send it in Jordan Lake.
" He didn't say that, but I knew that's what he was getting at.
So I said, you know, "No! Absolutely I would bet my life on that blow poke, unless the cops" 'cause we're still going through this conspiracy thing, "Unless the cops came, got blood and put hair on the goddamned thing.
" So, then Then our next concern was Clayton.
He did this.
He put it there.
You know, and we talked to him, and we talked to him.
I said, "Look, you got to tell us the truth.
Is this Is this legit? I have looked down there.
I have been down there.
I Clyde has been down there.
We look specifically for the goddamned thing.
I cannot believe I missed it.
" And he swore to me, "Dad I went in and found it.
That's it.
" Just be careful.
But how the fuck does that get missed? How did they miss that, Ron? Looks like a shower curtain.
- It's a pattern.
- No, how did Mike I don't think they looked that well.
I mean, there's a lot of shit.
- No, no.
Ron, Ron.
- I know.
You walk down and it's fucking here.
I mean, it's not like it's in a corner.
Yeah, well.
On the edge, it looks like tiny little - I don't know.
- There is some stuff.
But what difference does it make? This is clearly old I mean, it's not something Mike bought in the last six months.
- It's 38 and It's 38, it's 38.
- Maybe it You need to go have a talk with Mike.
I need to make sure that if we test this fucking thing He swears, right? Let's go talk.
You see, I don't believe that it was there all this time.
That goddamned thing has not been there for five years.
Or six years, or seven years.
I don't believe that.
I really don't.
I agree with you on that.
It seems to me that from a strategic point of view, I don't have any idea how this ends up cutting.
I don't think it hurts us unless the jury feels like we have staged this in some way.
Yes! Yes! Yes! I understand that, Mike, but And I think the way - we - It's too preposterous! OK, it may be too preposterous, but it is what it is, And so it seems to me that what we need to do is figure out the best way of revealing this so as to minimize any chance that the jury is going to feel like we have staged this in some way.
I wouldn't buy it in a minute! - My God! - Well - I don't know what else to do.
- I know.
No, I understand that.
I do, I just cannot I think this is terrible.
Well, can we get a professional photographer over so that we can actually get close-ups of the little bugs, and really good pictures of the of the cobwebs and all that stuff.
I mean, you know studio-quality pictures, whatever that takes.
I do not see how this can be turned into anything good.
Now look on here, how many cobwebs you have in this.
You have to hit it just right with the light.
See right there, that group right there? See another group right there? Shit.
That's on there in front was on the side here.
So you gotta be careful when you do this here.
You know, there's all kinds of filaments attached.
Cut it off right there.
I got to get your fingerprints on this somehow.
Somebody's squeezing it too tight there in middle.
It's not going in.
Right here, Todd.
You need to be careful about this here.
OK.
- I'm gonna let go for a minute, hold on.
- OK.
- Let me Let me grab it.
- OK.
You move your hands.
Careful it doesn't go through all the way.
Yeah, got it.
Fuck! I don't know, I gotta get get upstairs and see it better.
That's good.
That's good.
Goddamn! This looks like something out of Star Wars.
Don't you think? This looks like, you know Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Here, Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Stop fucking with it.
Don't you think, Obi? You can't bounce it around 'cause the shit's already on it.
- Alright, alright.
- We were careful, so, stop.
So what's the plan? We're going to plead you, tomorrow.
Hey, I'm ready.
I don't care.
- It's this shit I can't handle.
- Right.
Send me away.
Fuck, I'd take I'd take a lethal injection about this point.
I think um we need to call Clayton.
- You do? - Yep.
Please, rethink that.
Why do you need Clayton? Because I think we need to establish Let's put it this way.
Suppose we had Suppose Clayton had found that three months ago.
- Right - Alright, during jury selection.
Would there be any doubt in your mind, as we sat there and listened to Hardin talk about the blow poke, and how they got rid of the blow poke, and the blow poke's the murder weapon, and Deborah Radisch says, "Oh, yeah, this is it, because it's hard enough, but it's not too hard.
" Would there be any doubt in your mind that we'd want to put that blow poke into evidence? - No, I guess not.
- No.
The only thing The only fly in the ointment is that we found it last night, not three months ago, right? I mean, that I mean, let's all get clear on that.
Isn't that really the issue? If we had found this if you had found it six months ago, would you have any doubt in your mind about whether we should use it? Of course not, no.
No.
You wouldn't either.
We'd be there salivating.
We'd be waiting for that magic moment when I took it out.
Is there no way to fudge it and say, "Here it is in the house.
It was found in the house.
It's been in the house for who knows how long.
" You can't fudge this, Mike.
I don't want Clayton on the stand.
That's all.
They're just gonna kill him.
You know that and I know that.
- Freda Black is, you know - What are they going to do? They're going to establish that when he was a freshman in college he got in trouble? They're going to cross-examine him about his credit card debt.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, OK.
He's got a pending driving without a revoked license.
That's still pending in court here.
He had a DWI two years ago.
Alright, I'm going.
I've seen enough of you for today.
Be cool! Bye, Mike! Thanks for a great Sunday.
Hey, listen, if anything else comes up that's really an emergency, - Call Hardin.
- That's right, don't call me.
And I don't answer the phone at 2:30.
I noticed.
Never!
It started May 5th, it's September 5th.
We're not paying any more money, so forget about it.
So, actually the reason for this The reason for this meeting is so everyone knows we're quitting.
- We We did the cross.
- Done your part.
That's right.
Hey, I can't do anymore, I'm tired.
Alright, so Um this, to me, is not an academic exercise at all, because I have a real question in my mind about A, whether we should put on any evidence at all, and B, if we should put on evidence, what it should be.
The one thing I haveabsolutely no doubt in my mind about in this particular topic is that you shouldn't testify.
I don't see any upside to that and I see lots of downsides, but obviously, Mike, this is your decision.
This is your life.
Whether you should testify is your call, ultimately.
So, let's start with Bill and just go around the table, and hear what people have to say.
First of all, I think I would definitely put on a defense, that's the first issue that we need to decide.
I think there's a couple of jurors who I think who are leaning to a conviction at this point.
And I think that the experts that we've hired and the theories that they've come up with and the way they explain things are so compelling that it may shift those two jurors.
So, I think we need to help some of these jurors along.
- Todd.
- Clearly you need a defense.
Prior to Radisch's testimony, I feel that everybody would've voted not guilty.
Radisch's testimony was quite effective with at least three jurors, notably Rogers.
And it will take medical testimony to get her back on the not guilty side.
- OK.
Ron? - We're in a hell of a good position just with the prosecution's evidence in.
Would we get an acquittal? I don't know.
I believe we definitely would get a hung jury.
Then you get a hung lawyer.
'Cause I'm not going through this again.
Sorry, Mike.
I just don't see a conviction, but I see a hung jury at this point.
I don't see an acquittal.
- OK.
- And that's a gamble that we have to take.
I want to say something else, and that is that you are not universally liked.
I know that may come as a great shock to you.
I think there's a couple of people on the jury that actually don't like you very much.
You are perceived as very slick.
You know, very oily, by them, I think.
You know, it's the old theme: he's got a lot of money, most of which we've given to you.
And we've hired high-powered defense to get him off.
Well, you're not going to have permission to put that particular segment in the film.
Because one of David Because of one of David's overriding morals for every day of his life that I've known him, has been for everyone to love him all the time.
In that case, can I be excused now? Um Tom.
One of the burdens of putting on defense is you lose some of the reasonable doubt argument you otherwise have.
If you put experts on you are under some burden to prove something, and it becomes a little bit more of an equal match.
 I think Radisch, she's got some very basic things she says that no cross can take away.
Somebody else has to come and take away.
These seven lacerations or seven separate blows? But you got to have somebody else explain either how that can happen or that they aren't seven impacts.
So, I think there's probably some basic stuff, at least on the medicine, - that needs to be answered.
- Mike.
I agree that we need a defense, if only to answer some of the questions that Radisch raised and to fill in a couple of the holes that the people might have.
- OK.
OK.
- But not much.
I mean, here's the truth.
The two or three points the jury's going to trip the most on is the number of lacerations.
How the fuck do you get these many lacerations in these locations from falling down the stairs? - That was a main thing - The only thing you got to prove, as far as I'm concerned, is that it wasn't that damn blow poke, They have fucking married themselves - Yeah, they are.
- I know.
- So therefore - Deborah Radisch I mean, it's like Super Glue at this point, I mean, it - It was hot solid - The bottom line is that I think, you know, I can get up there in closing argument and say, "Let's just cut to the chase here.
If you have a reasonable doubt about whether that blow poke was in the house on December 9th, 2001, it's not guilty.
" No, no, we need a Johnnie Cochran phrase.
- I've got one.
- What is it? I've got a better one.
If it don't blow, he must go.
If it ain't the poke If it ain't the poke, he ain't the bloke.
If he ain't the poke, he's not going to the poke.
How about Deaver's got no hair and the proof ain't there? Welcome again.
Nice to see you.
I'm tired.
I'm exhausted.
This is my brother.
- My brother Bill.
- How are you? - And my son Todd.
- Hi, Henry.
Nice to meet you.
- And my son Todd.
- Hi.
Deaver says, "All going same direction.
" No, there's totally two different directions.
- Opposite directions.
- Right.
These two drops, opposite direction.
Also, different angles.
Right.
- There's one here.
- This is a - A drop here.
- Those are these two - are the same direction.
- Right.
Deaver says all of these.
This, this, that, and that all cast-off from a blow over here.
- From the same - Same event.
Same event.
Impossible.
- Should be 84.
Yeah.
- Eighty four exactly.
Eighty four.
- Eighty four, huh? - Now, they say he's here.
Five inches off this.
How do you end swinging the blow poke from over there, - from outside? - It's almost impossible.
So, you can swing from the inside and we should see cast-off spatter.
Right.
Five inches.
- Right.
- Let me do that then.
She is five feet two, sixty-two inches.
That's just 62 inches.
Hit here.
So, that can cause a multi-fracture now.
- Multi-laceration? - Laceration now.
And then she tried to somehow, dizzy and fall, sit here, maybe fall here.
And coughing.
Breathing, OK? That's why all the spatter.
Somehow, later, the shoulder touch here.
Probably can't get support, that's why you have so many fingerprints here on the side.
Just like this.
Here, more likely, just she already on the ground.
 Like this.
- Something like that.
- Right.
- OK? Meanwhile, coughing - Right.
bleeding, so Yeah, exactly.
- So, that's why that's the shadowy effect.
- Right.
You know, the bottom line here is accidental fall.
It's not consistent with a beating.
That's the bottom line.
Looks like a long night.
I think I want to start with, "Are you aware that Agent Deaver has given this jury the opinion that the blood staining in that stairway indicates indicates it's a beating?" "Yes, I know that.
" "Do you agree with that?" "No.
" "Do you have an opinion as to whether it's more consistent with the beating or more consistent with an accident?" "Yes.
" That's the last question.
Well, I'm going to come back You want to say that? OK.
Because you have to build up all these lines.
Why you want to start with Just so the jury understands that you're there to disagree with him.
You don't have to have them understand.
I'm here, basically disagree.
If I If I agree, I don't show up.
That shows the direction.
Do you see what I mean? That's how we know which direction.
And now we're going to move into medium velocity.
That's a cast-off pattern.
The cast-off pattern, it changes along the line.
The ratio lends a width.
You can't just, based on one drop, say that's a cast-off.
Can be any possibility.
Henry, they're gonna send me in the morning.
It's good.
It's good.
- Just that little much hair.
- That much hair did all that? Nah.
No, this hair Each time, you see? - You see that? - Yeah.
What would it would it be coughing? Hm? - What's for the coughing? - Ink.
- Come on.
- Ketchup.
Or Jello.
You have your choice.
OK, Ron, you do it.
See, maybe your cough is better than mine.
- Which one is ketchup? - This is ketchup.
You swallow it! Now I got to get my carpet cleaned! That's a bad experiment.
Right.
44 Now, if something in motion.
Can you hold this? I hope this it's not a new suit.
Let's say I have a weapon.
Weapon have some blood here.
I got you.
Now, you have a cast-off pattern.
Cast-off pattern, as you can see, is a line of formation.
You'll have to look at the totality.
You can't just pick one, say that's the one.
When I look at the staircase ceiling, as you probably recall, it has a cat picture on the north wall, above the picture, and nothing on the higher point of this area.
So, if an individual with a weapon, say 40 inches long, hitting I should see something on the ceiling, cast-off pattern.
Some maybe argue, say, could be chop the weapon a little bit.
But if you do that, you very difficult not to get some blood spatter on whoever suspect's clothing.
Focusing on that for a second, did you inspect Mr.
Peterson's shirt? Yes, I did inspect Michael Peterson's shirt.
It's a dark blue shirt.
 It's very difficult to see with naked eyes.
So what we did, use a higher magnification and use light sources, and tried to look at any area, see any spatter or not.
I did not find any blood spatter.
Did you observe anything in the scene that was inconsistent with Kathleen Peterson having died from an accident in that stairway? When we look at a blood spatter pattern, we have to look at the totality, the whole pattern, instead of jumping to focus on one small drop.
Just like you go to a forest, you want to see the whole forest first, before we examine individual trees.
Location one, we can see this area contact.
That's another contact, and coming downwards.
The blood goes downwards.
We have some spatter in this area, which photo did not really show up.
Some spatter on the wall, too.
This consistent with Kathleen.
Head more likely hit the moulding, have some spatter.
Now, location number two.
Here the majority, this portion of it, is a multiple deposit of stains, smear, spatter, wipe and swipe pattern.
The rest of that, we see spatter goes all different directions.
Multiple, as I say, approximately four thousand, or more.
So, in a beating, you don't create that much blood spatter.
This, based on my experience, has to be multiple origin.
Coughing, shaking her hair, shaking her hand, moving around.
Maybe some impact spatter there, but everything is all together.
Dr.
Lee, based on your education and your training and your experience and on your own observations and findings in this case, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty as to whether the totality of the evidence in this case, from the scene, is more consistent with a beating or is more consistent with an accident? It's more consistent with an accident.
That's all I have.
Thank you, Doctor.
Let's take a 15-minute break.
Now do you recall having a series of conversations with Agent Deaver after having looked at the model and seeing the targets that he created - and looking at the test closely? - I did have some conversations with him.
Do you recall telling him that you had traveled around the United States and that this was some of the best work that you had seen? I tell him something, "He did some good work.
" And the model is beautiful, but the model did not prove anything.
Let me show a copy of your book.
You recall giving him a copy of your book? Yes, I generally give everybody a copy of book.
 I want them to learn.
Do you recall signing an inscription with a note to Agent Deaver, - in this book when you were there? - Yes.
If you would, please, read what the note says.
It says "To Duane Deaver, one of the best.
Keep up with your good work.
With warm regards, Henry Lee.
" You probably found thousands of these sent.
But you wouldn't give it to him unless you had felt that way, would you? No, no, I give everybody courtesy, that's Chinese culture.
I went to his place.
He extended a courtesy, let me see what he has.
That's my upbringing, respect other people.
I give him a book.
I cannot write, say, "You're" I don't want to say.
You can't write on a book, say somebody, "You totally wrong," or something.
What are you going to write? His conclusion is wrong, but he tried very hard.
I can't say he didn't try to do good work.
Agent Deaver did a lot of work.
So, you're agreeing then that he did good work? I did What do you want me to say? "He did lousy work," on a book? I cannot say that.
Just like I give Mr.
Rudolf a book, I say, "You're one of the best attorneys.
" But he's lousy and I still give him that book, and - Now, based on all that you saw - Yes.
and all that you did, or all that you didn't do, is it your testimony before this jury that you can absolutely, conclusively exclude that Kathleen Peterson was beaten on her head? I say my conclusion is more consistent with an accidental falling.
But you can't exclude that she was beaten, - based on all you did - Nobody can't exclude everything.
But the pattern tells me, the indications, everything more consistent as an accident.
Court TV called me.
And they want some documents you said you have, - I guess it's from this library stuff.
- Yeah.
Well, I guess they're too lazy to do all the work you've done.
- Well, I - Yeah.
This has taken a lot of work.
Nobody wanted to go through these boxes.
I'm not giving her everything, only the one that I mentioned to her.
Unless she does something really nice for me.
And then I'll give her the one I gave to Jim Hardin today.
Well, she bought you a very nice dinner.
Yeah, yeah.
That's true, But I didn't ask her to.
That's true.
Let me see what it is.
I can probably see as much Four of 11.
Great.
Boy, this is nicely organized.
What I find really amazing about all this is that he kept so much of his life from such a young age that he I guess he is narcissistic.
"You cannot kill and be unaffected.
Like an animal who first tastes blood, so is a man who kills.
He is forever disposed to that thirst.
When he sees how simple is the act.
he is forever disposed to that thirst.
Perhaps he will never kill again or ever want to, but always in his mind is the knowledge of the act.
The awareness of its simplicity.
The peculiar remember reminder of elation, sexuality that accompanied the deed and, too, that he was licensed, rewarded, or simply never caught.
" Where the heck was that published? This See this, he talks about frizzle in here.
This is This is his A Time of War book.
- I'll put it back with the others.
- Oh no, that's I don't know why it stuck with this, but that's where I found it.
Death and sexuality are a bit of I copied one of these things here that says sex and violence are always intertwined in his books.
And believe me, they are.
Well But he's been adding to this periodically.
Well, if you read through it, you'll see there's some homosexual military stuff.
OK.
It's like in everything he writes.
Is the word "autobiography" used on it in any place? - No.
- No.
You don't actually see that word? Does he refer to himself in first person singular? - First person.
- First person, OK.
He's writing about himself.
I mean, he can come up with something else, but I sure think this one is him trying to figure what's wrong with him.
There's so many things in here that correspond with what I believe I know about Look.
I can't believe anything my brother-in-law tell us anymore, but what I thought I knew about his life, about him getting married, going off to Vietnam and certain other things, and that this one thing at the back Whoa.
I want it to be that he talks about himself.
This handwritten thing, he talks about that he's an aberrant personality, pure wicked, and incapable of moral action.
Well, I spent a lot of time reading his handwriting.
I'm getting to know it.
And so I thought, "Wow! He know's something's wrong with him, and he's trying to figure it out.
" And unfortunately took it out on my sister and some other people, but And the DA can't bring it in unless Michael gets on the stand, but there's not much else I can do.
I couldn't find anywhere where he talked about how he planned to seduce women and push them down the stairs and collect their money.
I was like I couldn't find that.
- Alright.
- I was hoping to.
OK, that's the one where he talks about happiness is murdering.
OK, so this is I don't think it's worth copying all this for Lori, but it's a short story set in Germany, and Here we go.
"Hell is not being happy, and being happy is what? Being happy is doing what you want.
Doing you want want is an exercise in pleasure.
Therefore, being happy is doing what gives you pleasure.
Loving, sacrificing, murdering.
" I could see the loving part.
- Possibly even sacrificing.
- Make two copies of that.
Two copies? I'll make three.
Could you tell the jury what biomechanics is? Well, the word in biomechanics, "mechanics" is the study offorces and motions on objects.
How how objects deform, how they tear, how they break, how they rupture.
When you focus it as biomechanics, it ends up being that same application to understand the deformations and the forces on the human body.
Have you supervised the creation of an exhibit? Could you describe to the members of the jury what it was and how it was created, in terms of what mathematics, what figures, what science went into it? Basically we had to reconstruct, graphically, the dimensions of the scene.
And we had to, from pictures of Mrs.
Peterson standing up, et cetera, to approximate her height and shape, and we had to use all that information to see if a scenario of a fall is possible.
And, in fact, if it's realistic.
And, in fact, if it's likely.
You know, this is an action that could happen any different way, but basically she lost her balance and fell straight back.
Nothing to restrain herself when she let go of the railing.
And how far did her head travel, did the simulation head travel before it hit that moulding? For this one, it's about 35 inches of arc.
And that's how you're figuring out the load this created that sufficient to cause the laceration, but not sufficient to cause a fracture? - Right.
- OK.
that door jamb, its shape, and how high she fell from that step could have accounted for this injury.
The left arm has a contact.
Right arm has a contact against the moulding.
Is there a bruise in that location? Yeah, these are the consistent elbow bruises.
Continuing with the contact points, the back of her head above the neck contacts that step.
You saw the first one from that first contact.
And this second one, resting on that step is responsible for these two.
From a sitting position, getting up, you see where her feet are.
She slips out, loses her balanced there.
If she were taller, if she were six foot five, she'd probably hit the east wall or something.
 I mean, you know, it's This is a dimensional issue.
So, falling from that point allows her to hit where she hits, because that's her characteristic length.
How many autopsies have you attended where the ultimate opinion of the pathologist was that an adult person died - as a result of a beating death? - No, I didn't do that.
None.
But not having had that experience and not being a forensic pathologist yourself, you've come into this courtroom and told this jury that Deborah Radisch, who actually performed the autopsy, is just dead wrong about this? What I'm saying is it's more likely that a fall impact caused this, and we have biomechanical evidence that an impact with a hollow cylinder wouldn't wouldn't do it.
She is wrong, if that's what she's saying.
Would you agree that a person that's actually there performing the work on a body, whether it be surgical work or work as a forensic pathologist, would you not agree that that person who can actually look at the body, feel the organs, feel the wounds, might have a better vantage point in making a final decision about a case than a person later on doing like what you did? I don't know how she could determine how those injuries occurred.
If she determined that those injuries were the cause of death, that's fine, but the causation, the mechanism by which these things occurred, whether they are cut with a knife, or a cylinder, or a flat object, or a fall, I would be surprised if Dr.
Radisch would be able to do that.
If I know medical training, they don't have causation training by mechanics.
My question was whether you would agree that a person that's actually there, whether it be a doctor, or a pathologist, or even someone in your position, actually there visualizing a person's body, looking at their wounds, feeling their wounds, measuring their wounds, looking at all the different things on the body, would you not agree that a person with that vantage point would really have an advantage in making a decision in a case like this? Making a decision The person right there with their hands right there.
- Not on the causation - With their eyes right there.
the event that caused the injuries.
I don't believe just by being there you have sufficient insight, knowledge, to determine how those injuries were caused.
OK.
Somebody, it was probably on Court TV, said, "The defense, they haven't injected a single bit of emotion in this case.
It's been science, science, science, but in fact this is two dead women.
" That is a problem.
From just from the point of view I'm talking about, which is the story.
That's what I do for a living, is tell stories.
And everybody wants to hear a story, from the time they were little babies.
This is the story.
And better a nice story than a scary story.
And I do see where we haven't told a story.
Except in the sense that, here are the forensics and that's cold, and whatnot.
But I don't know how you get into the story, anybody's story, without going into the other side, the bad stuff that everybody doesn't particularly want to have come out in their life, because for every good thing, there's if there's not at least a bad thing, somewhere back there there's a spin on it that can come back, I don't know.
- I don't know.
- It's a razor's edge.
I think the prosecution has used every dirty trick they can to do character assassination of Mike.
And they've they've taken every little point that could possibly been made and twisted it in a light most unfavorable.
You know, there has been a lot of emotional testimony there, and that it when there gets to be debates in the jury room between on the science, if you've got swing people, what do they fall back on? A lot of those people could fall back on emotion.
What can we do about that? They have no neighbors, nobody here within the community, you're well-known, Kathleen's well-known, nobody really from Nortel.
Caitlin, who they've had access to, has been in court every day.
If it would've been anything negative that any of these people could offer, they would've brought them in.
To me, that is strong.
The fact fact that they've had Caitlin there, and if there's anything within the relationship, they would've brought her in.
May I interject? Now is this something you can use? That you could turn to and say, "Look" - Yes.
- OK, alright.
So, the lack of what they put out, to me, is stronger than anything else.
And I think that if we open up the door to anything with your character, your ass is gone.
If the forensics were doing poorly, and we thought, "God, you know, we really need to give something to the people," than maybe you'd take a risk, but I think that the forensics, it's gone about as well as it can go, you know, other than somebody magically saying, "Seven lacerations disappear.
" Mm-hm.
Is there anybody who is in favor of calling any other witness, including you, Michael? Most importantly you.
No, because I am very realistic.
Nobody's insulting me.
I am a big boy and Hell, I have lived my life.
So, yes, I understand.
And it would be probably infinitely more negative in the long run, so.
.
drop it.
- OK.
- OK.
Meeting adjourned.
OK.
Go in there.
Go through the house.
They wanna look at the pool.
- Does that suit you, Dave? - Just tell Martin.
They can go in this way, do whatever they're gonna do, see the pool, and come exit this way.
Well Now, we put What we did was we put the made sure the chair was along that line there.
- 'Cause it was in the down position.
- Well, yeah.
And we tried to match it so that Remember, Deaver said it would match that.
Right.
OK.
- Let me go this way.
- Alright.
I know what to do, I'm going to look at it upstairs.
Levity.
- Put out all the family photos.
- That's right, absolutely.
- Put away all the porn, right? - That's right.
- Just trying to be - No, I'm only teasing.
I'm only teasing.
You did see the blow poke over there, right? Oh, I missed it.
I think I've seen enough.
We'll come back out this way.
A lot of them paid attention to the blood spatter, even kneeling down, looking down, squatting, looking at the dried blood that was on the moulding of the doorway.
So, they were really interested in the blood spatter.
Did the jurors touch anything? Well, they all took notes.
They would come out of the stairwell and take notes and go back in, get another look, then take more Did it seem like they wanted a spatial sense of whether there is room to - get the blow poke? - Well Like I said earlier, several of them stood in the stairwell, went up about three or four steps, and kind of waved their arms to kind of get a sense if you can fall back.
They seemed to be consuming a lot.
It's one thing to see it in a picture, I guess it's another thing to see it in person.
- How'd the blood look? - It was dry.
Ron? What are you doing today? I need you to come to Chapel Hill.
They found the blow poke.
No, the blow poke.
They found the blow poke.
Hi, Ron.
You fucked up a good golf game.
Well, sorry.
You could've gone to play golf, I didn't I had my golf bag on my shoulder, walking out the door.
- Did you really? - And then I saw Rudolf Myers.
Shouldn't have picked it up.
Shouldn't have picked it up, but I did.
Alright.
Let's start with me understanding completely what happened.
Alright? So take it from the top, Clayton.
I mean, give me give me the full rundown.
Well, I went downstairs.
First thing I did, I looked at the car.
I looked in the trunk.
And I looked around at the side 'cause that's where the tools are.
- OK.
- And then I came around to the other side and I just saw it there.
It was just right past the trunk, just sitting there.
OK.
So, then I went and got Margaret and brought her down, just to make sure, 'cause I couldn't believe it was just sitting right there.
Then we went upstairs and got Dad.
- What was he doing? - I was reading.
Almost going to sleep.
And, Margaret, you went to get him? Yeah, I just yelled, "Dad, we found the blow poke.
" Come on, let's go! We were terrified.
We were freaked that, you know Literally freaked as to what happened.
 So, we got Margaret got her video camera out.
I got the She got the tape recorder.
We were I called Tom by this time.
And, you know, if the cops show up, we're just going to "You can't come into this house until my attorney, who is" I thought you were going to show up on a motorcycle.
"appears.
" So, now you're waiting on Tom.
What are you doing while you're waiting on Tom? - We went in the den.
- OK.
And Todd said, "I wanna talk to you, Dad.
And I'm going to ask you.
Would you bet your life on that blow poke?" And I know exactly what he was doing and what he was saying.
That, "Dad, I know, you know, if there's any chance there's blood, or hair, or anything on that blow poke, I'll take that goddamned thing and send it in Jordan Lake.
" He didn't say that, but I knew that's what he was getting at.
So I said, you know, "No! Absolutely I would bet my life on that blow poke, unless the cops" 'cause we're still going through this conspiracy thing, "Unless the cops came, got blood and put hair on the goddamned thing.
" So, then Then our next concern was Clayton.
He did this.
He put it there.
You know, and we talked to him, and we talked to him.
I said, "Look, you got to tell us the truth.
Is this Is this legit? I have looked down there.
I have been down there.
I Clyde has been down there.
We look specifically for the goddamned thing.
I cannot believe I missed it.
" And he swore to me, "Dad I went in and found it.
That's it.
" Just be careful.
But how the fuck does that get missed? How did they miss that, Ron? Looks like a shower curtain.
- It's a pattern.
- No, how did Mike I don't think they looked that well.
I mean, there's a lot of shit.
- No, no.
Ron, Ron.
- I know.
You walk down and it's fucking here.
I mean, it's not like it's in a corner.
Yeah, well.
On the edge, it looks like tiny little - I don't know.
- There is some stuff.
But what difference does it make? This is clearly old I mean, it's not something Mike bought in the last six months.
- It's 38 and It's 38, it's 38.
- Maybe it You need to go have a talk with Mike.
I need to make sure that if we test this fucking thing He swears, right? Let's go talk.
You see, I don't believe that it was there all this time.
That goddamned thing has not been there for five years.
Or six years, or seven years.
I don't believe that.
I really don't.
I agree with you on that.
It seems to me that from a strategic point of view, I don't have any idea how this ends up cutting.
I don't think it hurts us unless the jury feels like we have staged this in some way.
Yes! Yes! Yes! I understand that, Mike, but And I think the way - we - It's too preposterous! OK, it may be too preposterous, but it is what it is, And so it seems to me that what we need to do is figure out the best way of revealing this so as to minimize any chance that the jury is going to feel like we have staged this in some way.
I wouldn't buy it in a minute! - My God! - Well - I don't know what else to do.
- I know.
No, I understand that.
I do, I just cannot I think this is terrible.
Well, can we get a professional photographer over so that we can actually get close-ups of the little bugs, and really good pictures of the of the cobwebs and all that stuff.
I mean, you know studio-quality pictures, whatever that takes.
I do not see how this can be turned into anything good.
Now look on here, how many cobwebs you have in this.
You have to hit it just right with the light.
See right there, that group right there? See another group right there? Shit.
That's on there in front was on the side here.
So you gotta be careful when you do this here.
You know, there's all kinds of filaments attached.
Cut it off right there.
I got to get your fingerprints on this somehow.
Somebody's squeezing it too tight there in middle.
It's not going in.
Right here, Todd.
You need to be careful about this here.
OK.
- I'm gonna let go for a minute, hold on.
- OK.
- Let me Let me grab it.
- OK.
You move your hands.
Careful it doesn't go through all the way.
Yeah, got it.
Fuck! I don't know, I gotta get get upstairs and see it better.
That's good.
That's good.
Goddamn! This looks like something out of Star Wars.
Don't you think? This looks like, you know Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Here, Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Stop fucking with it.
Don't you think, Obi? You can't bounce it around 'cause the shit's already on it.
- Alright, alright.
- We were careful, so, stop.
So what's the plan? We're going to plead you, tomorrow.
Hey, I'm ready.
I don't care.
- It's this shit I can't handle.
- Right.
Send me away.
Fuck, I'd take I'd take a lethal injection about this point.
I think um we need to call Clayton.
- You do? - Yep.
Please, rethink that.
Why do you need Clayton? Because I think we need to establish Let's put it this way.
Suppose we had Suppose Clayton had found that three months ago.
- Right - Alright, during jury selection.
Would there be any doubt in your mind, as we sat there and listened to Hardin talk about the blow poke, and how they got rid of the blow poke, and the blow poke's the murder weapon, and Deborah Radisch says, "Oh, yeah, this is it, because it's hard enough, but it's not too hard.
" Would there be any doubt in your mind that we'd want to put that blow poke into evidence? - No, I guess not.
- No.
The only thing The only fly in the ointment is that we found it last night, not three months ago, right? I mean, that I mean, let's all get clear on that.
Isn't that really the issue? If we had found this if you had found it six months ago, would you have any doubt in your mind about whether we should use it? Of course not, no.
No.
You wouldn't either.
We'd be there salivating.
We'd be waiting for that magic moment when I took it out.
Is there no way to fudge it and say, "Here it is in the house.
It was found in the house.
It's been in the house for who knows how long.
" You can't fudge this, Mike.
I don't want Clayton on the stand.
That's all.
They're just gonna kill him.
You know that and I know that.
- Freda Black is, you know - What are they going to do? They're going to establish that when he was a freshman in college he got in trouble? They're going to cross-examine him about his credit card debt.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, OK.
He's got a pending driving without a revoked license.
That's still pending in court here.
He had a DWI two years ago.
Alright, I'm going.
I've seen enough of you for today.
Be cool! Bye, Mike! Thanks for a great Sunday.
Hey, listen, if anything else comes up that's really an emergency, - Call Hardin.
- That's right, don't call me.
And I don't answer the phone at 2:30.
I noticed.
Never!