Back on the Record with Bob Costas (2021) s01e01 Episode Script

The following is a presentation
of HBO Sports.
BACK ON THE RECORD
WITH BOB COSTAS
And, here we are, back on the record
Picking up where we left off in 2008,
when things were so different
The Packers were in the midst
of a quarterback controversy,
Chris Paul was turning heads
in the NBA,
The Pirates were in last place,
America was competing
in a controversial Olympics
So different
OK, let's fast forward to 2021.
On the program tonight
Olympic gold medalist Aly Raisman,
on the Tokyo Games,
Simone Biles and the state
of gymnastics
Our panel includes Cy Young
award winner David Cone,
the WNBA's Renee Montgomery,
and our resident man of opinions,
besides my own, Bomani Jones.
But we begin with someone
who needs no introduction,
largely because that would cut
into his time talking
Ladies and gentlemen,
I give you Charles Barkley.
- Thank you, Bob!
- Long time, no see. How you doing?
Man, I'm doing great.
This if off season for me.
Basketball ended awesome,
so I'm excited to be doing nothing.
We're gonna talk about this just
completed NBA season in a minute,
but recently you said that
you might not be long for TV.
Too politically correct,
not as much fun
But who's stopping you from
saying whatever you want to say?
I was saying it kinda
tongue in cheek.
I know basket
The world has changed.
You can't crack jokes anymore.
- But you do.
- I'm going to.
You know, I'm gonna have fun.
Bob, I'm talking about
a stupid basketball game.
I tell people is not like I'm a doctor,
a lawyer,
an engineer, teacher, farmer, policeman,
somebody in the armed services.
Those are like real jobs.
I get paid to watch the greatest
basketball players in the world.
They are all making
30-40 million dollars.
Everybody's happy.
But I am trying to make people
at home have a good time,
especially during a pandemic.
So I'm gonna have fun.
And, hey, if they fire me, so what?
They are not gonna fire you.
You might be the only person,
in the midst of a cancel culture,
who's pretty close to uncancelable.
Here's something you said recently
You mentioned the pandemic.
At this point, anybody who doesn't
get vaccinated is an asshole.
I only said it 'cause
I 100% believe that.
I think it is selfish
I do, I think it's selfish
And I think it's really selfish
if you play sports.
Because, Bob, number one,
a lot of people have died,
which sucks.
But more people lost their jobs,
they've lost their houses,
and their dreams have shattered.
All athletes have been paid.
I just think it's so selfish.
Think about this
We are the only job in the entire world
where we've gotten paid
and everybody else have lost
their jobs or gotten laid off.
And for players,
not to take the vaccination,
I just think it's selfish, because,
number one, you don't want
to get anybody sick.
That's the most important thing.
But I just think it's selfish,
for you, who are in a great situation,
not to be vaccinated.
The NFL recently said:
If there's an outbreak on a team,
with a significant number
of unvaccinated players,
they're liable to forfeit the game.
I think that's great.
Well, listen, every job
you go to have rules.
I think there has to be mandate
to get vaccinated.
and if you don't wanna live
by the rules of your job,
you have the right to get fired.
You do have rights,
but there are certain things
I can't do with my job,
there are certain things
you can't do with your job.
I think all sports should be mandated.
You have to get vaccinated.
And if people don't like it,
they have the right to walk away.
All right, let's move on, even though
we could talk about that for an hour
without getting to the bottom
of all of this.
Random stuff This is from you.
"I don't care what people think.
People are stupid!"
Well, I think the reason
I said that is
In my second year in the league,
when I was becoming a star,
they start coming to me.
I asked Dr. J how can I
'Cause he was a mentor to me, how
to deal with the media and the fans
And he says: "Young fellow,
you're gonna have to make a decision."
"You can't make all these people happy."
"It doesn't matter what you say.
That's the thing that's funny."
"It doesn't matter what you say.
Half of people gonna dislike it."
So I tried for a little bit.
He says: "I told you that."
And he says: "Charles,
you can make a decision"
"always to be honest
and straightforward."
"Now, some people gonna love that."
"But some people
gonna be the same way."
And I made my decision. You ask me a
question, I'm gonna be honest with you.
You don't have to like me.
You can disagree with me.
But I feel like I have an obligation
to be honest with myself,
especially on television
When I heard that call from you,
I thought of one of the great
George Carlin quotes,
and there are many of them.
"Think of how stupid
the average person is."
"Then realize that half the people
are stupider than that."
You know, like somebody's stuff
you can't even make up.
That's for sure.
Like when you're watching TV
sometimes, you're like
"Does that person really
believe that?"
And you're like:
"That person is just stupid."
Plain and simple.
But the one thing I've learned to do is
I don't overreact to stupidity.
That's the one great thing
about this country.
You have the right to be stupid.
You really do.
And many people
are embracing that right.
No question.
There are so many Chuck quotes
that I could chuck your way,
but we have a limited amount of time.
A recent one:
"Yes, I have a gambling problem,"
"but I can afford it."
Now, sport are now in bed
with gambling operations.
You see the ads
in all the telecasted games.
They're sharing in the profits off it.
Would that atmosphere,
when you were an active player,
would that have affected you or other
players? Is there a danger of that?
I don't know how to answer
that question, honestly,
because I think the guys all make
so much money now,
they'd be stupid to get involved.
Like if you're making 20-30 million
If you're making 5-7 million dollars
a year
how much are you gonna risk
your livelihood? That's just stupid.
Listen, two things in this country
that the toothpaste is out the tube:
gambling and pot.
I don't know to answer.
I'm not a pot guy.
I've tried pot five times. All of them
made me do was eat potato chips.
It didn't
- You're not alone in this.
- No, but I'm saying
I got friends who love pot.
I'm sitting around with them, they're
smoking pot and they'd be like
"Man, this makes me feel
a type of way"
So I tried it like five times
And I said:
"You got potato chips around here?
I don't feel a certain way."
And it's the same thing
with gambling.
Ah, gambling
I love to gamble.
I'm much better at it now
than I was 25 years ago.
25 years ago I thought
I could break the casino.
- Every time I went there.
- It doesn't work that way.
Yeah, I had to learn it
the hard way.
Now, I go there,
I gamble for a few hours,
I win a little, I lose a little
I had a great weekend.
But there was a time when I was like:
"I'm gonna break the casino."
- I'm gonna stay till I break it.
- Did they ever cut you off?
Four hundred, five hundred in debt
No more.
They cut me off way later.
- Oh, into the millions?
- Yes.
But then I had to learn
When I lose a million.
It's a lot worse
It sucks when I lose a million.
But when I won a million
I was on cloud nine.
And I went through a period
when I was like:
"I got to win a million dollars
every time I go to the casino."
'Cause I won a million dollars
a couple of times.
But I lost a million dollars a lot more,
to be honest with you.
You win a million dollars.
How do to they pay it out?
Cheque, cash, they give you chips?
Always cash.
I would take it home in cash.
Take a million bucks home in a big sack,
like the guy on the Monopoly card?
You put in a suitcase, Bob.
It's a lot of money.
It comes in a little plastic bag,
when it's all sealed up.
If you are not a role model, as you
famously said long ago, who is?
Anybody in sports a role model?
We don't really know these people.
The reason I made
the role mode commercial
I went to Nike and I said
I want to make this commercial
because we have so many
segregated schools.
And the one thing I realized
was the problem was
black kids think they can only be
successful in sports and entertainment.
That's the reason I made
the commercial.
I knew I was gonna take some heat,
but in fairness to Nike,
they came back to me later and said
that 90% of the letters are positive.
You have to listen to the whole spot.
And that is what I am proud of.
Bob, I am still concerned
today that black kids
they don't think they can be doctors
and lawyers, engineers and teachers
Obviously, some do,
because there's plenty of them.
But there's a subset that's not.
Yeah, but the system
we've got in place for sports
it is dangerous.
You got a gazillion kids
trying to make it in sports
and less than 1% gonna make it.
That's my problem with this whole model.
All right. I wish we could
continue on this, but
let's roll the footage from 1992.
Barcelona Olympics,
Dream Team
Here's Charles with Michael Jordan.
Sometimes I dream
That he is me
I just wanna be like Chuck
I mean Mike.
OK. You guys were tight.
Normally, I don't deal on this kind of
stuff, but it's you and Michael Jordan.
Are you guys still friends?
What's up with that?
We are not and I take some
responsibility for that.
I criticized his
He was one of my best friends
and I definitely love him and miss him,
to be honest with you.
But I have to do my job.
I said, at the time
We could debate whether
I should have said it,
but I was asked a question and I always
try to be honest at my job.
I said: "I don't know if Michael
is ever gonna be successful,"
"cause I don't know if he got enough
strong people around him."
- Running the Charlotte Hornets?
- Yes.
When you are famous,
you really have to be careful.
Not just Mike or anybody
who's famous.
There are people around you
You buy all the drinks,
you buy all the meals,
they're on your private jet.
They're never gonna tell you no.
Ever!
And if you look back at history,
there's been a lot of self-destruction
in celebrities.
The one thing I try to do is
I wanna have people around me like:
"Charles, stop!"
You're doing something stupid.
You don't think Michael has that,
even now,
at this stage of his life and career,
not a player, owner?
I think that he has been successful,
but when I said it, at the time,
I stick by that.
And it was painful to lose him
as a friend, and it's still painful,
but when I said it, at the time,
it was true
Whether I was right or wrong,
that's debatable.
But when I'm asked a question
on live television,
I have to be honest,
because that's just who I am.
And that alone set him off?
That alone was the reason for the rift?
- Yes.
- OK.
Jordan of LeBron?
Jordan. LeBron is amazing.
What he's done in the community
is amazing.
The reason I get Jordan the edge
Actually, in fairness,
I don't even put LeBron past Kobe.
Let's get that out of the way.
I want to be fair.
The reason I put Michael up there
before those other guys
LeBron has stacked his teams.
Let's be realistic.
As Kevin Durant did
and others have done
- Is this their legacy?
- Yes.
Russell Westbrook
on his way to the Lakers?
So I do.
Like what Giannis
And Dirk Nowitzky, guys like
But Giannis is the perfect example.
They go through the gran.
And to lose
It was Michael Deane.
When I watched that documentary
I was like:
"Damn, I forgot how bad
the Pistons beat him up!"
But what he
Going through that struggle
that what separates sports.
Like, winning all the time
Like, we all want to win.
But the struggle is part of your legacy.
But what Giannis did this year,
what Michael did when the Pistons
beat the hell out of him
for 3 or 4 straight years.
And he's like:
"No, I'm gonna keep getting better."
That's the difference, in my opinion.
Your opinion matter more than mine,
but when people asked me this question,
here's my answer.
LeBron might be in his own way
equally excellent,
he will never be nearly as great,
because Michael's performances
in big moments -
six for six in the finals,
MVP every time,
and his effect on the culture,
the dream team,
and taking the NBA mainstream
Now, none of this
is LeBron's fault,
but in that era that you played in,
in the 90's -
factor my bias in -
the NBA is on NBC.
The promos are on Seinfeld
and on ER,
and on Cosby, and David Letterman
and Johnny Carson,
The Today Show, The Tonight Show
They're not a cable entity.
Little old lady in Omaha said:
"Not tonight, Mildred!"
"I gotta watch Michael Jordan."
No comparable little old lady every
said, through no fault of LeBron's:
"No! Stop everything! I gotta
watch LeBron." It's not the same.
Two things.
Number one
Michael is the first jock
to do commercials.
No. O.J. did and many did.
- Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle did
- But not at that level.
That's the first thing. He made
Guys can do five commercials
a year now,
but the second thing is
no jock was selling tennis shoes.
Now guys are making 100 million dollars
selling tennis shoes.
Nobody made money selling
tennis shoes until Michael Jordan.
And he's still making that today.
That is transcendent.
Like I said, I got nothing
but love and respect for LeBron.
But if you are able to make it when
everybody is shooting commercials now
LeBron is making 100 million
for selling shoes
because of Michael Jordan.
It's self-explanatory.
Could be equally excellent,
but not nearly as great.
Now, pop quiz Spell
Antetokounmpo.
I'll spell you the Giannis.
G-I-A-N-N-I-S.
Spell Antetokounmpo.
Ante A-N-T-E.
K-O
You left something out.
A-N-T-E is correct.
Antetokounmpo.
- Another "T".
- Yep.
- O
- Yep.
- K
- Yes.
- O
- Yes.
M-T
- There's no "T".
- E
There's no more E's.
You do need a few more vowels.
Bob, I didn't go to class a lot
in college.
I went to college for three years
and I am still a freshman.
There it is, on the screen.
For your edification.
Two more very quick things.
Chris Paul now, 16 years, no ring.
You had no ring, but other who were
part of the dream team with you
I don't want to leave nobody out
Patrick Ewing, John Stockton,
Karl Malone, Chris Mullin
all on the dream team, in '92.
Largely because of the presence
of Jordan, no ring.
Is it fair to Chris Paul?
It is very unfair to Chris Paul.
First of all, he's the greatest leader
we had in NBA in the last 10-15 years.
That's quite a statement.
First of all, we all wanna
win a championship.
I don't think it diminishes us.
I think it can enhance you.
I think winning the championship
enhances you.
But it doesn't define you. I mean
First of all, I am trying to figure out
when it became an individual game.
Just because some idiot on TV
says he hasn't won a championship
Wait a minute!
I am not out here by myself.
The reason that Knicks didn't win
is not because of Patrick Ewing.
The reason that Jazz didn't win is not
because John Stockton and Karl Malone.
No disrespect to my teams
in Philly or Phoenix.
We didn't win and I don't think
it was my fault.
How about this? Jerry West.
Mr. Clutch, the logo of the league.
Played in nine finals.
His teams lost eight.
He played in the NCAA final.
West Virginia lost by a point to Cal.
Can you imagine what they would
do to the logo, to Mr. Clutch, today?
Hey, listen
First of all, he is one of the greatest
men I met in my life.
One of the nicest, greatest
men I met in my life.
Listen, part of
It all goes together.
I am happy with what I accomplished
in basketball.
And I'm not saying it,
I'm not angry,
I am not jealous on anybody,
but I'm happy with what
I accomplished in basketball.
Last thing. What's your biggest
regret, if you have one?
So funny you asked that question.
My biggest regret If I had known
all these jackasses on TV
are gonna criticize me
for not winning a championship,
I would've joined the super team
way back.
That's my biggest regret.
I can force my way out
like James Harden
and I can play with Michael,
Larry and Magic.
But I don't have any regrets.
I am 58 years old.
I had an amazing life.
I've accomplished everything I wanted
to accomplish in my life, to be honest.
I got my family out of poverty.
I am from a small town in Alabama.
I've accomplished everything
that I wanted to accomplish.
We gotta stop, even though
I wish we could continue.
- You know Bomani Jones, right?
- Yes.
Well, he will be a regular voice
on this program
Where am I?
I gotta get used to where I am.
So, here's Bomani with his thoughts
on the recent supreme court decision
Impacting college sports.
It's a new day in college sports,
one where college athletes
can make money off their names,
images and likenesses.
This after many states passed
laws allowing the practice,
rendering the NCAA powerless
to stop it.
That's pretty cool,
but let's think about this.
The supreme court issued a 9-0
decision that declared the NCAA
was in violation of the Sherman
anti-trust act by capping
education related benefits
provided to athletes.
Brett Kavanaugh, one of the court's
most conservative justices,
made the most obvious point,
That no other business is allowed to
make money without paying for labor.
It's good to see athletes
finally able to cash in,
but think about what a hustle this is.
The NCAA now allows
others to pay its workforce.
Now, players whose time is already
decided by their non-paying jobs
can use the scant hours they're
not making money for the schools
to do so for themselves.
It's not enough that players
can get money now.
They should be getting money
from the schools.
They should get a cut
from the biggest pile of all,
the TV money that funds million dollar
coaching salaries,
that builds fancy buildings
that are used to recruit players.
Buildings, I'm sure,
players would forego
if they just got their cut of the cash.
That's the problem with the push
for allowing players
to profit from their fame.
It ignores what's really immoral
about the status quo
and tacitly endorses its maintenance.
It implies only famous
players deserve money,
like there aren't thousands
you'll never hear of
destroying their bodies in obscurity.
The local pizzeria shouldn't
decide who deserves a paycheck.
This whole thing is rotten,
but many who support change fear,
deep down, they'll lose something
they love if the players are paid wages.
They want to hold on
to a few fairy tales.
They won't want their favorite
programs to go out of business.
Like it or not, if you can't pay your
workforce, you can't do business.
Progress might not be pretty for
everyone, but it would be right.
The players aren't entitled
to side money.
They deserve the real money.
If Brett Kavanaugh can see that,
and you miss it,
you're doing it on purpose.
That's Bomani Jones' view,
which I share in part.
Bomani, make you way on over here
and join the panel eventually,
but first let's start
with a response to this.
This isn't to be construed in any way
as a defense of the NCAA.
I wouldn't do that.
But we're losing No, what I'm about
to say, not what you just said.
We are losing track
of the bigger picture.
I realize this whole thing
is a sham,
in many cases,
but it should not be.
A player on full scholarship
is getting the benefit
of a free education if he or she
takes advantage of it.
At my alma mater, Syracuse,
for four years,
that's between
250 and 300 000 dollars.
Notre Dame and Stanford,
300 grand.
Alabama, 100 grand.
Outside, about 180 000 dollars.
It's only if you view this as worthless,
that you're being entirely exploited.
I am all for name, image and likeness,
make what you can.
It's only gonna be a tiny fraction.
But if you're not there
inteding to be a student,
you can't claim to be exploited
if you don't go to class
and don't get the benefit of it.
But they are recruiting students.
What you say makes perfect sense if
they were recruiting real-life students
and they would prioritize
your athleticism
over your ability to be a student
every single time.
So if every athlete was coming in,
able to get into the schools
and prepared to use the education
we talked about, then I'd be with you.
But they are knowingly letting people in
that they know
are not necessarily able to handle
the work that is there before them
and not even allow them to fully indulge
in the education that you described,
so if there is time for them to go to
class and take real live majors
and, beyond just the class part,
if there's time to hang out on the quad
and just be an actual
college student to go to discussions,
then everything you say is correct,
but that's not the world we live in.
How about this?
In the revenue producing sports,
the president of the university
monitors all admissions.
You have to be at least minimally able
to be a student at that school
if it didn't have a basketball
or football program.
Then go back to the old model.
Freshmen are ineligible. You have
four years of eligibility after that.
Every scholarship is at least five
years. Establish yourself as a student.
During the season you only have
to carry maybe 6 credits.
You could come back later
to get the degree.
But you have to be a legitimate
student.
And we're not gonna have freshmen
play football games in August,
before they ever go to a class
and then play holiday basketball
tournaments when they should be home
at Thanksgiving and Christmas.
Reform that and a lot of what
you're mentioning goes away
and then the NFL has to come up
with a legitimate farm system
and the NBA has to expand its own.
No, the solution to the corruption of
the NCAA
truly is take everything off
television
because the money of
television is what fuels everything.
- But everything that you described
- Thank you, Knute Rockne!
But in the presence of television and
the money that comes with television,
then everything that you described there
will never happen!
And that ain't never happening
on this planet!
Oh, no! That horse left he barn!
And joining Bomani now for our panel,
two time WNBA champion
with Minnesota Lynx,
who's now the part owner of the
Atlanta Dream, Renee Montgomery,
and five time All Star,
five time World Series champ
and Cy Young Award winner,
now a broadcaster on Yankee games,
here in New York, David Cone.
David, will start with you. Lots of
issues in baseball.
One of them is the crackdown on the
so-called sticky stuff.
Spin rates were through the roof,
pitchers dominating hitters,
baseball crackdown Should they
have done it and has it worked?
I think it was the right move, even
though they had to do it mid-season.
I mean the batting averages
were at an all time low,
strikeouts at an all time high.
Pitchers and their stuff was just
darting at the top of the strike zone,
so certainly we can measure it now with
the new technology
and the spin rates kept going up and up
and up almost by the team.
If one guy on the team showed you
how to do it
then the entire pitching staff seemed
to benefit from it.
And we saw exponential increases in the
spin rates almost overnight.
Let's talk about the concept of pressure
in sports.
It's front and center now,
because of Simone Biles situation,
which will talk more about in a bit with
Aly Raisman.
You were perfect for one day, in 1999.
You threw a perfect game.
People expect Simone Biles, Renee,
to be perfect all the time.
I think it's because a lot of times when
somebody is great at something,
you almost look at them as
this action figures.
They're great and then if they show
any sign of weakness
if they can't play for something that
you think that they should fight for,
can't perform because of mental health,
everyone's like but this person is
supposed to be great
and I think we're starting to see now
some of those greats,
what we define as great,
the mamba mentality,
is starting to change a little, 'cause
if you break down the mamba mentality
- That's Kobe Bryant.
- Yeah.
You think of him walking to the free
throw line when he tore his achilles
and he's fighting through
and he's doing whatever it takes,
but now we see a Naomi Osaka
and she's like,
for my mental health
I'm gonna take a break.
And then you see Simone Biles
and you see what's going on with her
and so it starts to shift
the conversation a little bit
to what's great and what's not
and they're still great.
They're just conscious
of their mental health.
With Simone there's a physical aspect
that could have led to catastrophic
injury. We'll get to that with with Aly.
What's the most pressure
you've ever felt
and did you ever succumb to it?
I did. The most pressure ever felt is
when I did
It was 1988, I was pitching
in the playoffs against the Dodgers,
and I had done a ghostwritten column
with Bob Klapisch,
and back then they had The Wire.
I said some disparaging thing
about some Dodger players,
Orel Hershiser and J Allen.
The Dodgers had 100 copies
of that newspaper article
pinned on their dugout wall
when I walked out the pitch.
Everybody was on the top step of the
dugout, screaming at me.
My legs got heavy.
I physically almost got ill.
I was nauseous.
I completely choked in that game.
First time ever. I admit that I just
completely choked in that game.
But you pitched a good game
later in that series.
I did. It was a learning experience.
I learned and suffered from it,
as much as you can,
as a baseball player,
in that situation,
in the playhouse.
But I did. It was a real learning
moment for me.
After the game, what do you do,
Bomani?
Stand in front of your locker,
face the music?
I did. The minute the doors opened
and the press
Back then, they let press
in the club houses.
Kind of a love story, too. You can
question people after the game.
But I stood in front of my locker,
answered every question,
and took the heat.
I'm trying to figure out what you had
bad to say about Orel Hershiser in 1988.
- Nothing. Scoreless innings.
- I call them lucky.
It was a big hit.
That was insightful.
But the idea they faced the music part
is a big one, right?
We the media are not quite as important
as we like to make ourselves to believe,
but I fully respect the idea of somebody
be willing to take all these questions.
I can think of LeBron 2011
against the Mavericks,
where every question was a gut punch and
how difficult that must have been to do.
And I can understand why people want
to walk away from it.
I think the flip side of it is we don't
say enough of an admiration
that we have for the people who then
stand in that situation where you did,
like I earned this, I own this,
and now I do it.
There has got to be room
to respect the humanity of people
in the times where
they are not able to do it,
while giving credit to people
when they can.
Instead of expecting this superhuman
feat to be the default.
But look what we do to the people
that do step up.
Okay?
Sha'Carri Richardson.
She said, "Look, I did it. It was
illegal where I was at, but I did it."
Look what happens, though.
There's that give and take.
He stood up and took the heat, but
Twitter wasn't going on at that time.
It's different when you know that every
single thing you say will live forever.
It will be reposted, re-put back to you.
So it's changing.
Social media is a big part of this,
because it's something like
David, our generation,
we're aware of it.
But, for a younger generation,
it's primary.
What's on Twitter,
whether it's idiotic or not,
or what's on Instagram or someplace
else may be more central to their life
than a cover story in Sports Illustrated
or a profile in the New York Times.
You look at it now.
There was this trend going around
asking the younger, even athletes,
"Would you rather 20,000 more followers
or hit the game winner?"
That's the question that young athletes
have to consider.
- And they have to think about it?
- They do.
- Well, damn!
- Exactly.
Things are different. Their first
thought is social media.
That's an afterthought. Even for me.
After we lose a game,
my first thought wasn't, "Oh, what are
they saying about me on Twitter?"
I was at that age where my first
thought, "I'm just mad about the game."
If you live in there, even if you're
Simone Biles, that can be a trap.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, think about it, if
If you're talking about the pressure,
we didn't have that necessarily.
A whole world pressure of the social
media can feel like an attack.
Something can go viral and it feels like
the whole world is looking at you crazy.
And so that's their reality now.
Now you're a part owner
of the WNBA's Atlanta Dream.
You took off the whole season a year ago
to focus on social justice issues.
And we know that there was a moment
in time, post George Floyd,
there was a reckoning.
That isn't to say that it stops
when the calendar year stops.
But how do you respond
to those who say
We're not talking about the
shut-up-and-dribble people,
we're talking about people who would be,
in the general sense, allies,
who say, "When I'm watching the game,
I just wanna watch the game."
"And there's a million and one places
to discuss these issues."
I think that those people don't realize,
to the same that this Gen Z,
social media is their reality.
Well, when you're black in America,
what we're talking about during sports
is our reality.
Whether we're playing sports or not,
a lot of times,
when people are like, "Just separate the
two, we wanna just see the sports"
And I'm not even talking about
the shut-up-and-dribble people,
I'm talking about the people that just
wanna take a break from it.
We don't have that luxury.
When we're thinking about
"Oh, that's great to just get away
for a couple hours and take a break."
"Good for you that you can do it,
but not everybody can."
It's significant that you are part of a
group that purchased the Atlanta Dream
away from the primary owner,
who was Kelly Loeffler,
who was a Trump person in Georgia.
Maybe that's coincidental.
I'm thinking it's not.
I think that Georgia did a lot in 2020,
and one thing was to stand up.
"Whatever is happening in the world,
we don't want that happening here,"
"in Georgia, we don't want
that happening in Atlanta."
I think the players, the Dream 2020
Atlanta Dream just won
the ESPN and Humanitarian
Sports Team of the Year Award.
That's because they stood up
when it wasn't easy.
A lot of people were saying what the
previous owners of the team was saying.
But a lot of people
also stood against it.
Bomani, I'm good with the general idea
of athletes using their platform.
I'm old enough to remember first hand
Tommie Smith and John Carlos,
a specific moment in time and a profound
statement in its context.
Muhammad Ali was sui generis
because he was Muhammad Ali
and because boxing
is an individual sport.
Arthur Ashe, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
admire them greatly,
and admire and agree with many
present day athletes.
But I don't think, in order to prove
that I am generally okay
with what comes under the umbrella
of social causes
that I have to view every athlete
with a Twitter account
as Frederick Douglass in Nikes.
Do I have to?
We don't have to view anybody, anyway,
in one particular form or another.
One thing that happens
in terms of the encouragement of people
to be "outspoken" is
- Not everybody is worth listening to.
- Correct.
The willingness to speak does not mean
that you are the person who should.
I am not necessarily annoyed by people
who speak when they should listen
if I believe that they mean well
and a lot of people do mean well.
But I also think that if people get
to a place where they focus
on the fact that they are annoyed rather
than the fundamental understanding
that these people mean well, then
we're looking at things the wrong way.
Last thing. The Cleveland Indians
will now be the Cleveland Guardians,
which is a nod towards some history and
architectural significance in Cleveland.
What do we think?
I thought The Spiders
would have been nice.
They used to be The Spiders
a hundred years ago.
- The ideas for the mascot
- Unless you have arachnophobia
That's true too. Terry Francona, who had
to step away due to health reasons,
handled the press conference after this
announcement beautifully.
He said he's never been so proud to be
a part of the Cleveland Organisation.
They're trying to do the right thing and
take everybody's feelings into account.
They did their homework, talked to
everybody involved, Native Americans
He said they did their diligence and
made their decision. He was proud of it.
- Bomani?
- As long as it's not The Indians
The only thing that mattered is
that it's not The Indians
and I can understand the idea
they want
to take everybody's feelings
into account, we didn't need
to talk to everybody. We got stuck
with this name for so long
for listening to too many people.
It was obvious
that this was clearly disrespectful
to a group of people
because of who they are, because
of their ancestry and that was
enough reason to change. We didn't
need to talk to nobody else.
And the point to those who object should
be, "not intentionally disrespectful."
We're not saying people who have
Chief Wahoo jackets or memorabilia
are being intentionally disrespectful.
What matters or the point I made,
many years ago,
at half time of a Sunday night game,
about the Washington Redskins
Get a dictionary!
Make distinctions!
Every dictionary says an insult, a slur,
a derogatory, pejorative,
regardless of the present day intent,
that makes it distinct
from Chiefs, Braves or Warriors,
which doesn't have to be regarded
as disrespectful,
depending upon the symbols
and upon the rituals.
Warrior is not a race-specific thing.
A Chief or a Brave
is an honorific.
That's not really different
from Patriot or Buccaneer. Is it?
Except so many of our Native American
brothers and sisters
are telling us, "We find this
to be disrespectful."
- We're like, "But we don't mean it."
- That's the problem. It's like
If people have already said it
This happened and we've only
realized this recently.
It's been happening. There's been
movements against it.
And now, all of a sudden,
everybody's like, "Oh, it's wrong."
That's the problem.
Just listen.
I feel compelled as the moderator to say
that there have been surveys that say
that the majority of Native Americans
either think it's okay or don't care.
- But. 50 percent ain't the threshold.
- There we go.
We could continue and I've got a feeling
we will, in the Green Room.
Thanks to all of you.
Now
Over the last decade,
Aly Raisman has been one of America's
biggest Olympic stars.
At the 2012 games, in London,
she captained the "Fierce Five",
as that Squad was known and
they won gold in the team event.
Four years later in Rio, Raisman
and "The Final Five,"
as they dubbed themselves,
repeated that feat
In the years since,
with the continuing revelations
about gymnastics' sexual
abuse scandal,
she's become one of the leading
advocates for change
in the gymnastics culture.
At the 2018 ESPY award, some 150
survivors of Dr. Larry Nassar's abuse
stood on the stage. Raisman was
one of those who spoke for them.
All we needed was one adult
to have the integrity to stand
between us and Larry Nassar.
If just one adult had listened,
believed and acted,
the people standing before you
on this stage
would have never met him.
And here now is Aly Raisman.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Since 2018, since 2017,
following the Rio Olympics,
when you made
your own experience public,
how far have things progressed
and where do they have to get to
for you and others like you
to have some closure?
It's a good question. Thank you for
having me. It's nice to see you.
We've been saying for years that we want
and I think that we need,
in order to feel safe
and to be able to feel safe
for ourselves and the current
and future generations,
an independent investigation
where it goes back decades
and nobody's off limits,
the US Olympic Committee
and USA Gymnastics release
all documents, data,
text messages, emails,
and that has not even been close
to being done.
So it's been a very long journey.
I reported my abuse six years ago.
So it's been a very long,
exhausting journey.
USA Gymnastics offered a settlement
of something over 200 million dollars
that was rejected out of hand and
angrily by Simone Biles, you and others.
It would have protected Steve Penny,
the former head of the organization,
it would have protected in theory the
Karolyis from any legal ramifications.
I also think, for me, one of the big
reasons why I decided to file a lawsuit,
it was something that I was really
afraid to do,
but after a lot of thought
and consideration I realized
that it would help us get answers,
because as I just said,
we've been saying for an independent
investigation for years
and that's not happening.
So when you do have a lawsuit,
you are able to get access to documents
and data and you learn stuff.
It's a very slow process,
but we want answers,
which is why we keep pushing
and saying the same things,
but it is absolutely absurd that USA
Gymnastics and the USOC are saying
that they want certain people
to be dismissed.
Because that also prevents us
from getting the answers
and understanding who knew
what, when.
I ask this question on behalf
of the average viewer
who might say, "Okay, I know why
perhaps in some sports,"
"steroid use is swept under the rug
because it helped us win."
"Or illegal inducements to athletes
in college. It helps us win."
How did what Larry Nassar do
help anybody win?
What was the downside,
from a competitive standpoint,
for anybody involved in gymnastics,
including the heads of USA Gymnastics,
to say, "Wait a minute.
There's no cynical upside here."
"Get rid of this guy."
I don't even
I don't understand
how people who worked
at USA Gymnastics and the USOC
the first time they heard the slightest
concern about what he was doing
why they didn't take immediate reaction.
I mean immediate steps,
why they didn't report it immediately,
why they didn't protect us.
I think it really just comes down to
they just didn't care.
And we were winning
and that's all that matters.
All they care about is reputation,
money and medals
and it's very disappointing, but there's
still a lot of the bad people there.
We're not gonna litigate the whole case
here, but what has become known
is that the FBI had information
and slow-walked the case
and that it was USA Gymnastics' attempt
to kick it can down the road,
to at least get passed the 2012 Olympics
before they had to confront anything.
Is that how you see it?
- I believe it was the 2016 Olympics.
- I misspoke.
I reported my abuse in July 2015.
I was told by Steve Penny,
the president of USA Gymnastics,
not to say anything publicly,
that the FBI was working on it,
and just to stay put.
And we kept following up.
My mom has been my biggest supporter
and had been incredible throughout this.
She kept following up
while I was still competing
and also while I was training
for the Olympics.
There was a lot of really shady things
that happened
and I don't understand
how this happened,
I don't understand why the FBI
didn't do more to protect us.
There's still so many
unanswered questions
and hopefully we'll get answers,
but it makes it hard
It definitely shakes my confidence
in the world that we live in.
The average person would ask
There are hundreds of victims.
"If there were only a relative few,
maybe the average person can understand"
"how things that were inappropriate
but were called treatment"
"didn't come to light."
"But when you have hundreds,
how did it stay secret for so long?"
Well
I think that the sport of gymnastics
is a really beautiful sport
but there are a lot of people in the
sport that are abusive,
especially when you get
to the elite level,
and I think unfortunately what happened
was it became so normalized.
When you have a group
of gymnasts and a group of coaches
who are telling their gymnasts "You look
fat, you shouldn't have dinner tonight."
"You're lazy." If you say your ankle
hurts, they tell you you're faking it.
You begin to not trust how you feel.
And then, when I am in treatment
and a lot of my other teammates are
getting the same type of "treatment".
Let me interrupt. "Treatment"
You were told it was treatment.
But it involved penetration and utterly
inappropriate and abusive things.
Yeah. So I was told, from the time
that I was around 15,
that this specific "treatment",
which was abuse,
would help prevent me
from getting injured
and would help me
get to the Olympics.
And I don't know if the same thing was
said to my other teammates,
but when I went to training camp
for years and years,
and this person is doing the same thing
to a lot of them,
I know not everyone has come forward,
so I want to be careful
It becomes normalized
in the most horrible way,
but I also want to bring up
There were times when we had said
things, we'd talk about it in practice
and there were times when people
would tell us to shut up
and never speak badly
about him again.
The shame that you feel as a survivor,
when something bad happens to you,
immediately went to, "I feel bad now
that I said something bad about him."
"What if I'm wrong?" And I began to feel
that whatever I felt was incorrect.
You get victim-shamed and told
that you're wrong.
So then you distrust everything else
that's happening in your mind.
It's very confusing.
And there is also
I was never taught that someone you
know could abuse you. I never thought
Did you ever tell your parents
about this?
I told my mom the moment
that USA Gymnastics
had someone come to my house
and talk to me.
- But it had gone on for a while.
- Yes. I didn't know.
Even when I first told my mom,
I still was very confused
and my mom helped me realize
what had happened.
You were among those who made
victim impact statements
looking directly at Larry Nasser
at sentencing.
Here's a piece of that.
From the time we were little,
we are taught to trust doctors.
You are so sick. I can't even comprehend
how angry I feel when I think of you.
You lied to me and manipulated me
to think that when you treated me
you were closing your eyes,
because you had been working hard,
when you were really touching me,
an innocent child, to pleasure yourself.
Two very quick questions
First When you look at that,
I saw you lower your head.
And with Simone Biles situation,
some of this, along with her withdrawal
from the Olympics comes back.
Does that happen, does it come back
in waves, unexpectedly?
Yeah. The other day,
I was physically sick.
I was like literally dry heaving
in my sink and I was
You know that feeling
when you have the stomach bug
and your whole body
is sore and shaking
I physically feel sick.
My brother is in the audience and I feel
bad that he has to hear that.
I feel bad that it affects my whole
family. It's in the news all the time.
It's not something that's easy for me
to hear over and over again.
What happened with Simone a few days ago
has been completely devastating for me.
I feel so bad
and truly sick to my stomach thinking
about what she must be going through.
I'm sending her all the love
and support and it's just terrible.
- Have you spoken with her?
- I have reached out to her.
I've heard back from her,
but we haven't been able to
Of course, understandably.
have a full conversation yet.
When she initially withdrew
from the team competition
and from the All-Around where she would
have been a prohibitive favorite
if she was on her game.
People grouped it with the whole idea
of mental health issues in sports
and that's legitimate,
but her situation is different
from Naomi Osaka or Michael Phelps
who've spoken out about it
because, if you explain to us
what the twisties are,
if she wasn't in the right headspace,
something catastrophic
could've happened
beyond discomfort, stress
and emotional distress.
Yeah. Gymnastics is one of those sports
where it is so dangerous,
and I know that athletes make it look
easy, but it's definitely not.
In gymnastics, if you run a little bit
too fast or a little bit slower,
this light goes into your eye
a certain way,
you even like sneeze
at the wrong time in midair,
anything can happen
where you just feel a little bit off
and maybe they're a little bit
jet-lagged, the pressure must be
I can't even imagine what it must
be like to be Simone right now.
The pressure that she has had on her
for the last few years is just
I can't think of another athlete
that has, similar to that.
Let me jump in. She has competed
with a kidney stone and a broken toe.
But when you're up in the air like that,
you have to have the muscle memory.
When she uncharacteristically didn't
stick a landing and stumbled a bit,
we now learn that that was probably
because it wasn't clicking up here
rather than down here.
Right?
It's actually very common.
Simone called it "the twisties".
I sometimes say we are getting lost
in the air.
I would do the same vault
that she was performing,
it's a two and a half tumble, and
I would sometimes do just a half twist.
Sometimes, for me, when my hands are on
the table, it feels a little different.
You get a little bit lost in the air.
If your head position is a little bit
different, you don't know where you are.
It is very very common. Simone and I
have talked about it many times.
And it's something where sometimes
it takes a day to get back.
Sometimes, you just need to go to the
bathroom, get a drink of water, return.
Other times, it takes weeks to get back
or even months,
or you have to completely change
the skill entirely and not do it again.
It is completely heartbreaking and
gut wrenching for me to see
that she is dealing with this
right now.
because she doesn't have the comfort
of her own home gym
to be able to say, "I'm gonna go home,
take a nap, rest,"
"I'm gonna turn the page,
come back tomorrow,"
"I can try it in the foam pit and"
The foam pit is you're not landing
on a harder surface.
They have hard surfaces in landing,
so there's really no room
If she lands a little bit off,
she can injure herself.
You're flipping around,
you could fall.
There are gymnasts sharing their stories
in support of Simone
saying that they actually broke their
neck and were paralyzed.
So anyone who doesn't understand it has
to recognize de severity and the danger
and understand that they don't know
anything about this sport
but also, we will never know what's
going on in Simone's head
and we just have to be supportive
and recognize
that the pressure that she was under
was way too much.
Nobody should ever have to have
that weight
of carrying a whole entire Olympic games
like she did.
But that alone, as I take it, that alone
would not have stopped her.
It was the possibility
that the combination of factors
had created a disconnect between
her mind and her body
that would have led
not just to subpar performance
but could have led
to a catastrophic injury.
Whenever Simone is ready,
I'm curious to chat with her and see
if she even understands
what's happening.
Because sometimes you feel good
and you just get lost.
Sometimes you might get lost in the air
because you are more tired,
maybe your legs give out, but other
times you might actually feel so good
that you have too much power you're
not used to and you get lost in the air.
So I have no idea if she even knows
what's happening.
But sometimes you just have no
control over it,
you feel like your mind and your body
are disconnected
and I'm not sure what's going on
in Simone's mind.
All I can say is that it is very serious
and I support her with all of my heart
and my heart is completely broken
and I've truly been sick about it
the last few days.
If you had a daughter,
would you want her to be a gymnast?
I love gymnastics and I am confident
that there are people in the sport
who are good people.
I wouldn't want her to go
to the elite level.
But I do wanna have kids one day
and I want my kids to be happy
and if my kid loves gymnastics,
hopefully by then,
we'll have made positive change
in this sport.
But I wouldn't want her to be
at the elite level right now.
Aly, thank you, good to see you again.
Some of this wasn't easy.
- We thank you for being here.
- Thank you for having me.
And finally, consider this
First the stipulations: it was an honor
to anchor all those Olympics on NBC.
I will always value the varied
experiences, personal and professional,
the travelogue aspect
and the memories of the dramatic
moments and moving stories
I was privileged to help present.
I appreciated the dedication and talent
of those I worked for and with at NBC.
And that high regard remains
as they present these Tokyo games
under challenging circumstances.
The enduring appeal
of the Olympics is obvious.
The extraordinary, at times almost
superhuman performances,
the sheer beauty of the competition
and of many of the competitors
themselves,
the cultural panorama
All of that is compelling,
as is the honest emotion
that often accompanies it.
Of course, it is concurrently true
that over its history,
the Olympics have survived cancellations
during world wars
A disgraceful embrace of Hitler
The racism and anti-semitism of longtime
IOC president Avery Brundage
Terrorist attacks
Disastrous cost overruns
for host cities Boycotts
And scandals too numerous to detail.
And yet the games endure.
So, maybe then, the Olympics,
like college basketball's march madness,
has too much going for it
to ever be undone
by the corruption and hypocrisy
of those who govern their competitions.
But the IOC continues
to test that premise.
And a confluence of current
circumstances may, once and for all,
pull the curtain back.
Despite overwhelming disapproval
from the Japanese public,
and from health experts
worldwide,
the IOC pressed ahead in Tokyo.
No fans, no families,
but also no mandate for athletes and
accompanying personal to be vaccinated.
Even if (as remains to be seen)
there are no widespread, or individually
tragic medical consequences,
a pall hangs over these games.
A pall that has commercial as well
as emotional consequences.
But the IOC bears almost none of the
burden of Tokyo's massive cost overruns,
or NBC's reduced ratings and revenues.
As written, the contractual risks
and rewards all favor the IOC.
And now, no sooner will Tokyo's already
flickering flame be extinguished,
than it will be on to The Winter Games
in February.
Where? In the skiing and skating
mecca of Beijing,
where lofty talk of the Olympic ideals
will ring particularly hollow.
Both Human Rights Watch
and Amnesty International
rank China as among the world's worst
human rights violators.
Given its population,
global influence,
and on-going brutal use
of government power,
China might actually rank first
on that wretched list.
An inconvenient fact by the way for
socially conscious American athletes
who sometimes offer sweeping
condemnations
of their own imperfect country,
while turning a blind eye
to the monstrous crimes
of a regime they, Nike, the NBA,
and other sports entities
are all in bed with
and are loath to offend.
And that most certainly includes
the IOC,
with its troubling affinity
for authoritarian regimes.
The 2008 Summer, and now 2022 Winter
Olympics, were granted to Beijing.
In between, the 2014 Winter Games
were in Sochi,
where Vladimir Putin's operatives
switched samples of Russian drug cheats
right under the noses of the IOC.
And Putin burnished his image
with his countrymen,
even as he readied to invade Ukraine,
as the Olympics were taking place.
But no matter. Regimes like Russia and
China answer to no one about anything.
And certainly not their investments
in the Olympics,
which include lavish accommodations
and other considerations
for Olympic officials.
Putin reportedly spent a ruble's
equivalent of 55 billion dollars
on the Sochi extravaganza,
which doesn't even Include
the cost of the cloak and dagger
operation that gave me pink eye.
Unlimited budgets Yeah, that's right,
thank you very much.
Unlimited budgets
combined with the other realities
of authoritarian countries,
lead to spectacular
opening ceremonies,
fewer organizational problems
for the IOC,
and who knows what other perks
for key IOC delegates,
many of whom are still peeved
at the United States
after a free press and congressional
investigation
blew the cover off the Salt Lake bid
scandal prior to the 2002 Winter Games.
Over the years, when I made these
and related points on the air
and put those questions
to the leaders of the IOC,
the answer always went
something like this:
"We believe the presence of the Olympic
Games in these countries"
"will moderate their behavior and
promote Olympic and democratic ideals."
How's that working out?
Granted, not every decision in some way
impacting the Olympics
is tied directly to the IOC.
Various national and international
governing bodies play a part.
Still, in the big picture,
here's where we are:
an Olympics forced upon its host city,
and the world,
during a pandemic, immediately
followed by another
held in a nation whose ongoing actions
are antithetical
to the supposed ideals of the Olympics
and the platitudes that surround them.
Seldom has the imperious nature
of the IOC
and its malleable definition of
principal been so starkly revealed.
Just so we have this straight, Sha'Carri
Richardson smokes a little weed
and she can't run in the Olympics.
But if your country is run
by an international thug,
or is guilty of widespread on-going
human rights abuses,
well then, your country can host
the Olympics.
We're back on the record next month.
See you then