Back on the Record with Bob Costas (2021) s01e02 Episode Script

And so here we go
with our second installment
of "Back on the Record".
A bit later, fresh off the fitting
for his Hall of Fame jacket in Canton,
our conversation
with Peyton Manning.
We'll also convene our panel
to talk about the issues
of sexual assault in sports,
the proliferation of gambling,
and league COVID policies.
And we'll start with a duo
who made their legends
on the tennis court.
One smashed the glass ceiling
in her sport.
The other smashed
pretty much everything else.
On the eve of the US Open,
a tournament they each won
four times,
we welcome John McEnroe
and Billy Jean King.
Well, hello, you two!
We're back on the record. I love it.
I love HBO too.
We're back on the record, and we're
on the cusp of the US Open.
So the first question, does Djokovic
get the Grand Slam?
I believe he's gonna win it.
And we certainly could use
a little boost
after what's been going on
the last year and a half
in the world,
but particularly tennis.
Last year, Bob
And nice to be back.
I feel like this is the Bill Maher
segment over here.
- Well, we're following Bill Maher.
- Beautiful.
Last year,
I called without any fans,
and not even in the same room
as my brother,
so the fact that we're being told
that there's gonna be full capacity
is not only outstanding
for me personally
and for the sport,
for most importantly the players
and hopefully some of these
young upstarts,
'cause Nadal and Federer
aren't playing,
on the men's side will step up
and challenge Djokovic.
But let's remember Billie Jean King
knows all too well
- Great to see you, Billie Jean King.
- Great to see you, John.
- I see your book there too.
- Let's take care of this right away.
There's much too much in "All In",
Billie Jean King's memoir,
to get to even a fraction of it.
Just go out and buy it.
'69 was the last time
a guy's done it, Rod Laver.
- Rod Laver did it, yeah.
- His second Slam.
His second Slam.
This is gonna be quite historic
if he pulls it.
I think he's gonna do it.
No Federer, no Nadal.
Now no Serena.
That's true. We're having
a change of the guard.
And I've been through this a few
generations now because of my age.
And it's so sad when they start
dropping out,
but then you look towards
the young people.
'Cause I remember when Sampras
and Agassi quit, and I was like
And Martina and Chris quit.
I hate it,
but I really look forward to the young
ones that I've been watching,
the Tsitsipases, the Medvedevs,
Rublev.
All these guys are really good.
And with the women,
anything can happen,
because Serena is not here.
But Serena has not played
her best since 2017,
the last time she won.
Is it even possible
to compare Serena, let's say,
or Federer, Nadal, Djokovic
with players of earlier generations,
or has the sport changed
so much that these comparisons
are like comparing Walter
Johnson to Randy Johnson?
It's the same.
That's exactly what it is.
It's, like, you know,
Rod Laver was my idol,
but can you compare him
to Roger Federer?
I suppose in a way you could
or Babe Ruth.
They always talk about this guy
Ohtani is the new Babe Ruth.
Can you really compare
what was happening
with the equipment,
et cetera to go into that?
But I happen to believe
that Serena Williams is the greatest,
with all due respect
to Billie Jean
Every generation is the best
as far as I'm concerned.
Every generation gets better.
I think so,
and the racquets, the strings,
the information,
the training is so superior.
I would have given anything
to have this information.
They're so much better.
In your mind's eye, though,
do you ever say,
"here's how I would go about
competing with Serena,"
or, "here is how I,
24-year-old John McEnroe,"
"would do against Djokovic"?
- Totally.
- I would absolutely do that.
I hate to admit on television,
I do that on a fairly regular basis.
I think:
"How would I do against them?"
And I have a feeling that it
wouldn't be that great
for most of the time.
Would I beat him two out
of three out of ten times?
You know, I always thought Federer
was the best on grass.
Nadal's the best on clay.
- I know I wouldn't be the same
- You'd be better.
With these racquets
and your touch, are you kidding?
So that's how come I'd win
two out of three out of ten.
These guys are the three greatest
players that ever lived.
We're looking at the three greatest.
And in ten years from now
I don't think you're gonna see
Stefanos Tsitsipas,
who's gonna be a great player
They're not gonna be as good
as these three.
If they get better than this,
I'd like to see it.
Okay, in your imagination,
is it possible,
can you create a scenario
where you or Chris Evert
or Martina could beat Serena,
on even terms?
No, she should win every time.
Now, mentally, mental toughness
and emotional toughness,
I think you can take each generation
and analyze it pretty well, actually.
- It's very different.
- Well, that brings us to this.
Mental health in sports
is much in the news.
Osaka, Simone Biles.
Michael Phelps.
We've been talking about him
for a number of years.
Each of those situations
are different.
I bring this up because both
of you have been very open about it,
about being in therapy,
in your case anxiety
and eating disorders.
Therapy has really helped me a lot.
But my therapy was court-ordered.
It was?
- Like the tennis court?
- By a magistrate?
Or by a line judge
on the tennis court?
- No, it was more my divorce stuff.
- That's different.
The linesmen deep down liked me,
I think, believe it or not.
And there's not gonna be any linesmen
in a couple years,
so it's all like a distant memory.
Now they're like, "God, isn't it great
when there were linesmen?"
We didn't have microphones.
Nobody heard it when we went crazy.
First generation microphones
right here,
and man of all the people
to have this microphone
near the umpire's chair and all that,
I go, "this is gonna be amazing".
We used to be as horrible,
but we heard him.
We could hear you, John.
We didn't hear us.
We could say
What you want from
a tennis player or any athlete
is to be able to go out
and give 100%.
You know, that's all you can
really ask for.
I always believe it's better to try
and fail than not try at all.
Osaka went to the French Open.
She decided she didn't want
to talk to the press
for a variety of reasons.
I don't know if there was
some new team involved.
Supposedly she had
a new publicist.
Obviously with social media
you don't need to do that
to the same level.
She didn't want to be annoyed
about saying
she's not as good on clay
or on grass
than she is on hard courts.
Then she says:
"I'll accept 15 000 a match,"
"a fine, donate it to charity,
good idea."
These bozos, in my opinion,
the people "in charge"
decided that they're gonna
threaten to default her.
So what ends up happening?
She pulls out, lose-lose for everyone.
The problem I have
I respect
and in some ways admire
what she's trying to do.
Obviously with this pandemic
this has been insane
for God knows how many people,
but now the attention
is gonna be even,
the scrutiny, in my opinion,
is gonna even more on her,
and she's an introverted,
shy person to begin with.
I think that she's gonna have
a tougher time the next couple years.
She does a lot of stuff, though.
Do you notice?
Yeah, she does a lot
of social cause stuff.
Yeah, her heart is in
the right place.
But is it even
possible in this atmosphere
to have a nuanced conversation
about something like this?
You want to be as empathetic
as possible.
On the other hand, that doesn't
mean that every assertion
has to be met with a nod of ascent.
Paul Daugherty
of the "Cincinnati Enquirer"
asked what was actually in my view
a fairly sensitively framed question.
And it triggered her in some way.
She walked off, and then she
was trying to hold back tears.
And her representative says
that this is a bullying question.
If a question like that
is a bullying question
Look, if something's a trigger,
we can empathize,
but if every time someone sees
a redhead it triggers something,
are we gonna get rid
of all the redheads?
- We need to do a better job
- I have a daughter who is a redhead.
Yeah, be careful.
My relatives are too, so careful.
No. We need to do a better job
of what I call rookie school.
Because for instance, the WTA,
which no one knows,
has been giving help
to all kinds of players
with abuse, getting them a therapist,
whatever they need.
But of course they're gonna
do it confidentially.
You're never going to hear
from the WTA.
We've been doing that forever,
okay?
But if the player doesn't take them up
on it, I don't know what to do.
It is all black or white in society.
It's not even just tennis.
Social media is bullying.
It's this. It's good. It's bad.
There's a lot of people.
It's tough to make
60 million a year.
Why do you think
you make that money?
Can you imagine if
she was making 20 grand?
How about this? Let's turn
the clock back 20 years,
you and me on the record,
and here's what you had to say
about this subject.
To answer that question,
assuming that you're right,
why didn't someone have the balls
to go out there and say,
"okay, toss me"?
A good question.
There were times when I was begging
to be tossed.
I mean,
I wanted out of there so bad,
I was so fried from playing.
You think you had an emotional
problem at some point?
Beyond really caring about the game
and caring about the competition,
did you have some kind
of emotional problem?
You probably should have
a psychologist,
psychiatrist to talk about that.
But to me there were certainly
times when I lost it.
What do you think seeing that?
My hair's gotten whiter,
but I still have some.
Part of the way I acted
on the court
was for some of these reasons
that we are talking about.
As a guy, you were
supposed to be tough
and not let your guard down
and cry, for example.
Is that a fair assessment
of the way you were brought up?
I would get angry instead of showing
that fear of failure
that all athletes have at times.
And so this mental health thing
has been going on
since the beginning of sports
at a certain level.
No, but now it's out, which is good.
Let's talk about it.
We were talking
about it 20 years ago.
But part of our job is talking
to the media.
That's why we make
the big bucks.
You are the person who said
pressure is a privilege.
You can either
make it a friend or a foe.
You decide,
but it's not easy.
Just go get some help.
Don't play if you're really,
really in a tough place.
However imperfectly,
the world has changed for the better.
And so there's much
more acceptance.
You write about this episode
in your life
when a relationship
with a woman became public,
you lost all your endorsements.
Now people would actually
be embracing that.
And I would make more money.
We see same-sex couples
in commercials.
You lost all your endorsements.
Of course, being who you are,
you bounced back from it,
and you triumphed over it.
So in the one sense,
society is more accepting.
But now along comes social media,
which is a hellhole or can be.
It can be good or bad.
It's one extreme to the other.
Thankfully, I don't know.
I have managed
to stay out of it this far.
- I like it.
- So it's not a hellhole for you.
I like it,
because I like communication.
Any time you can talk,
you can argue,
it's fine as long as you don't hit
A couple of things we have to
get to before we leave here.
You were in the forefront
of a generation of activist athletes,
yourself, Arthur Ashe,
Muhammad Ali, Jim Brown,
and others, Smith and Carlos.
- Bill Russell.
- Bill Russell. It's a long list.
What do you think
of the current generation
that is stepping
forward in that respect?
I think it's good they are.
I think the one challenge they have
The one thing we did is
we knew about our history.
And the more you know
about history
the more you know
about yourself, number one.
But more importantly,
you are able to shape the future.
Why was the original line in
1971 able to shape the future?
Because we knew about the past.
Do you know, by the way,
the younger viewers
who are gonna watch this show,
that Billie Jean King has done more,
you know this, Bob,
for young girls,
female athletes growing up
than anyone in the history
of the world?
Yeah, just think about that.
You're on the Mount Rushmore
of that. Very quickly.
Just because we're pressed for time,
you once refused a million bucks
back when that was real money
to play in South Africa,
because it was still
an apartheid regime.
That was one of my most
if not my proudest moment
in terms of making a good decision
you know, for the right reason.
I knew something was wrong
with that.
I've gotten a lot of positive
feedback over the years,
and I got to meet
Nelson Mandela
when I finally did go down
there when he was president.
And he said to me at the time,
he said,
"I listened to your final
on the radio".
And I realized he was
at Robben Island
listening to the final
between me and Bjorn Borg,
my old buddy,
and I'm sitting there
complaining about line calls.
And he spent 27 years
of his life
Did you ever see
Robben Island yet?
Did I ever go to Robben?
No.
I've been twice.
It's an unbelievable experience.
You really should go. And Ilana
and I got to meet Mandela as well.
- Your partner, Ilana.
- We couldn't even breathe.
She said, "I can't breathe"
when we walked into the room.
It was such an amazing experience.
Last thing,
the Battle of the Sexes, 1973.
They made a movie about it.
Steve Carell was Bobby Riggs.
Emma Stone played you.
Okay, 90 million people watched
this match from the Astrodome.
It was a different landscape.
Not only was tennis in America
more front and center,
but the whole media landscape
was different.
- You didn't have that many choices.
- We were very young as a pro sport.
Everybody is watching, okay?
You're 27 or 29.
- 29. He's 55.
- You're 29, he's 55.
- Same age as my dad at that time.
- He had won Wimbledon in 1939.
He won the Triple Crown.
And the US Open a couple
times in the early '40s.
- No, he was a great player.
- He's 55 years old.
He had beaten Margaret Court
in a Mother's Day match,
and Margaret Court was at that time
ranked number one in the world.
At first, you had turned down
a match with him.
He followed me around
for two years. I said, "no, no, no".
But after Margaret Court lost, you felt
you had to take the baton, right?
I did. I told my former husband Larry,
I said,
"If she should lose,
I don't think she will,"
"then if she does,
then I have to play."
And it was a statement,
even though a cynic could say:
"What does this prove?
55-year-old guy,"
"one of the best
women's players in the world"
"in the prime of her career,
what does this prove?"
But in the context of that time
it was meaningful.
It was.
Title IX had just been passed
the year before, which means
the first time ever
that schools, private,
public, high schools,
colleges had to spend the money
equally to men and women.
And you'll see a lot of schools
became co-ed around there.
And this is the first time
we had athletic scholarships.
But what happened with that match,
it was about social change.
Women could not get a credit card
in 1973 by ourselves, by the way.
I know, it's hard to believe.
But the point is that every tennis court
was full the next week.
You could not get on a tennis court,
and it was so in
that everyone was wearing
And because of that match,
I've been asked
the last 20 years how I would
do against Serena Williams.
You've been trying
to play her?
No, I haven't been trying
to play her.
Yeah, you have. You know
you love the attention. Come on.
Can we come back to the next
"Back on the Record"?
Why would anyone want this to end?
But they're rushing me
in the control room.
But I am not leaving
without getting to this.
Let's end on a smile.
It was important,
as we just laid out,
in 1973, but it was a garish spectacle.
And you had to either buy
into it or at least accept it.
They bring you in practically
on Cleopatra's barge.
Yeah, but I said okay to it.
Jerry Perenchio, the promoter, said:
"Billie, I have an idea".
And then he goes:
"Would you get on this?"
And I go: "Absolutely".
I said: "Feminists love entertainment.
Let's go."
All right, but Howard Cosell,
who was a progressive
on many social issues
- Especially with Ali.
- Especially on race.
He wasn't exactly up to speed
with the feminist movement.
As you will now see and hear.
A very attractive young lady,
and sometimes you get
the feeling
that if she ever let her hair
grow down to her shoulders,
took her glasses off,
you would have somebody vying
for a Hollywood screen test.
There she is.
And there you have it.
Howard Cosell always at the forefront
of social enlightenment.
There, right there.
I didn't see that tape for 25
or 30 years after that match.
And when I saw it,
I could not believe it.
It's so interesting,
because in 1971
when nine of us signed a 1 dollar
contract with Gladys Heldman,
one of the reasons
that we were able to do this
and we were willing to give up
our careers
is that, the number two reason was,
that we'd be appreciated
for our accomplishments,
not only our looks.
And little did I know
that Howard said that until,
like, 1000 years later,
and I went,
"Oh, my God, it's scary how people"
40% of professional athletes
are women.
We get 4% of the media. Okay?
How are people ever
gonna know who we are?
- You've got 50% here.
- I know.
- You've got 63%.
- And we've got to go.
Billie Jean, John, great to see
you as always.
Good to see you, Bob.
All-American at Tennessee,
number one draft choice,
two-time Super Bowl champion,
five-time league MVP,
14-time Pro Bowler,
Walter Payton
NFL Man of the Year,
unanimous first-ballot
Hall of Famer,
and so the natural question is,
what it's like being
Eli Manning's brother?
Especially here in New York,
Bob.
I was playing golf yesterday,
I had two kids come up to me,
they just called me, they said,
"Hi, Eli's brother".
"Nice to meet you."
I was, like, perfect.
Just cut right to the chase, right?
Okay, Eli's brother still to come.
But right now, we cede
the floor to Bomani Jones,
who has some thoughts
on the NFL's priorities
in a controversial situation.
Thank you, Bob.
So why should we trust
the NFL's investigation
into Deshaun Watson?
22 female massage therapists
have sued Watson
for inappropriate conduct
during massages.
Two of them, Ashley Solis
and Lauren Baxley,
have waived their right to anonymity
and publicly accused
the Texans quarterback.
In an interview with
"Sports Illustrated's" Jenny Vrentas,
both describe how they were treated
by NFL investigators
feeling more like they were accused.
Solis said league investigators
asked what she was wearing.
Baxley called the tone of her
interview "victim-blaming".
The NFL did not make Lisa Friel
and Jennifer Gaffney,
their lead investigators,
available for comment.
Now, none of this is surprising.
I mean, sure,
in 2006 Roger Goodell
took over the NFL and made himself
the law and order commissioner,
making his reputation by cracking down
on off-the-field misbehavior
and landing on the cover
of "TIME" magazine
with the headline
"The Enforcer".
That's not his job.
He's the moneymaker.
It's like rock, paper,
scissors for the NFL,
and profits always beat justice.
An NFL investigation
of a budding star like Watson
is operating less from innocent
until proven guilty
to innocent until proven
more innocent.
Without another bombshell
report or criminal charges
from the current police investigation,
how does exposing Watson
do anything good for the NFL?
Watson's jersey
makes a lot more money
than a prison jumpsuit would.
He is the face of the Texans.
And if he gets his wish
and is traded,
he'll be the face of that team too.
So why would a league built on
marketing quarterbacks
tear one down, one whose image
was pristine before March,
if it did not have to?
It has felt like the NFL's
investigations are decided
before they've begun,
serving whatever
the league wants at the time.
The league wanted to send a message
to the Patriots in 2016,
and the Deflategate report
read like a math student
who got the answer
from the back of the book
and needed to show work, any work,
that looked like it made sense.
The only investigator to interview
Ezekiel Elliott's accuser
in 2017 produced an internal memo
saying Elliott
should not have been suspended
and that his accuser
was not credible.
But it was time to look tough,
so the NFL suspended him
six games.
It all feels agenda-driven.
But that's what people asked for.
They wanted the NFL,
which only demonstrates accountability
when it's been sued,
to hold players to a standard
higher than the law,
a standard to which it
barely adheres itself.
The NFL isn't trying to create
a better world.
They just want a richer league.
It's more about accounting
than accountability.
And any quest for the truth,
no matter the process,
will arrive at that conclusion.
Bob?
Okay, much to think about there.
And now joining Bomani
for our panel, noted journalist,
the director of the center for sports
communication at Marist College,
Jane McManus.
And an investigative reporter
who's written extensively
on the intersection of sports
and off-field violence, Jessica Luther.
Jessica, let's start with you.
It's obviously a topic that requires,
if we are gonna discuss it fully,
much more time
than we have here.
But on the subject of how
leagues and sports entities
deal with this as opposed
to the criminal justice system,
what's your reaction
to what Bomani just said?
I think Bomani and I are on
the same page here.
I mean, I think of the NFL
as a business,
and I think starting there
is a good place to start.
I also think it is important
to note that the legal system
which they built a lot of their
investigative systems on
is not itself very good
at handling this issue.
So it is a really big ask
of a business to take this on.
I think they need to figure out
how to deal with it.
The NFL has taken a different approach
to various situations.
In this situation
with Deshaun Watson
facing both civil suits
and criminal investigations,
they're saying hands off
for the time being
till we see how this comes out.
Same thing
with Major League Baseball
in the Trevor Bauer situation.
He is on administrative leave.
He's being paid,
and baseball is waiting to see
where the criminal
investigation goes.
Right, which is always
a precarious position to be in,
because we never know
how those are gonna turn out.
And the Deshaun Watson case
is really complicated.
But there are a lot of people
who came forward about him,
and it is really interesting
that the NFL has chosen
to leave him on the field
at this point in time as,
you know, a flash point
in all of this.
I don't know. We should be
questioning that choice by the league.
And for those who don't know,
if I can summarize this quickly,
in Trevor Bauer's case,
he's been accused
of sexual assault.
He says it was all
consensual sex,
kinky and off-putting
to most of us as it may be,
and that's what the case
hinges upon, correct?
Right, the idea of rough sex,
right?
He hasn't denied
that the violence happened.
He's just saying it was in
the context of consensual sex.
Jane?
Let's keep in mind
why leagues decided
they had to discipline
in these types of cases
or to put players
off the field.
And it's because
when you're a team,
you are asking your fans
to cheer for somebody
when they take the field and they do
something that's impressive.
And they didn't want somebody
who has a history
or pending charges,
a really messy case
that's in the public sphere
to then be on the field
and cheered for on a Sunday
or during a baseball game.
And so to me that is actually
something where the leagues have
recognized their responsibility
and their unique place in our culture.
It is not like a regular business.
When you are working
at Wendy's,
nobody's cheering for you
when you take an order.
There are lots of places where
you don't experience that.
But sports is different.
And the NFL could be deciding
this week
whether or not they want
to take Deshaun Watson
and put him on the
commissioner's nonexempt list,
which means that he wouldn't be
on the field for this season.
I do think it's important
to note that these teams
often position themselves
within the community, right?
Like, they say that they
are part of this community,
and so they're willing to take
all those resources
from the community, when they want
a stadium or something like that,
so I do think they have
a responsibility
to that community
when they have a player who
Especially when you talk
about college teams.
It may be a quaint notion,
but the idea is that
the college administration
is acting in loco parentis.
These are young adults
or adolescents,
and you've reported extensively
on the situation at Baylor,
where, I don't mean
to overstate it,
but sexual assault
became epidemic there.
Right, yes. And we saw just
two weeks ago, I believe,
the NCAA finally,
it was six years after
the initial reporting that my friend
Dan Solomon and I did,
the NCAA finally had their ruling.
And they came down
saying there were no sanctions
around the sexual assault part of it.
Because they have no rules.
They have never taken it on themselves
to make a rule around this.
The NCAA is more apt
to sanction a university
for some sort of illegal inducement
to get a recruit to come to campus
than for allowing
sexual assault on their campus.
Yes. That's what we learned.
But that's the business
that they're in.
Like, they are good
at throwing tournaments
and keeping kids broke, right?
Like, that is what they do.
And I'm curious what you think
about this,
because when the NCAA
They did something similar
with North Carolina
in the academic scandal
where they looked up,
and they were like, we don't
really work in that department.
And I actually was okay
with that in both cases,
because why in the world
would I trust
this particular institution
to do something credible
on these matters, right?
I feel like what we have
in a lot of these cases
is people are looking to an institution
to do something about this problem,
and the institution that's charged
with doing something
has been woeful in that regard.
And that is
the criminal justice system.
And so we want anybody,
anything to do something,
and so we look for the ruling
institution over all of us,
which is capitalism,
but the problem is,
it's capitalism,
and so the NFL is like:
"So you're asking us to take
a story that is not a story"
"and throw it on the front page
so that it becomes a story?"
So we have no institution
that we could trust.
And I'm wondering if anybody
has any thoughts.
Is there a solution
to that fundamental dilemma?
I don't think they're
interested in one, really.
I mean, the NCAA
is a revenue-generating business.
It's not in the interest
of that organization to do anything.
Look at the gender inequity
report, I'm calling it,
because of the way it treats
NCAA basketball,
men's versus women.
It's terrible.
I mean, they're just
not interested in it.
I think too often in society
and in sports
we see women being collateral damage
in whatever the enterprise is.
I mean, Deshaun Watson,
let's take him for example.
Imagine that instead
of massage therapists
being asked to do things
that they shouldn't be asked to do,
instead it was TVs
being stolen out of a house.
You wouldn't have his attorney,
Rusty Hardin, coming out and saying,
"Well, why were the TVs
so close to the door?"
You just wouldn't have that.
People would probably react differently.
But because this is about
harassment and women,
we treat it as though it's not really
the same thing when it is.
Next topic.
Today, Friday,
for our first airing,
we find out that nine
Tennessee Titans,
including the quarterback,
Ryan Tannehill,
have tested positive
for COVID.
The NFL has said that there
may be forfeits this year.
If a team can't field its full roster
or something that's competitive,
you forfeit the game.
It goes down as a loss.
What's your response,
any of you,
to the situation regarding vaccinations
in sports and COVID in sports?
I think what the NFL did,
which was really smart,
was they said,
"Okay, you guys want a choice"
"on whether or not you
want to get vaccinated?"
"Great, but we're not
gonna pay for it."
You want to take that choice,
you then incur the risk.
People made the decision whether
or not they want to get vaccinated.
There's nothing new coming.
FDA has approved it.
It's no longer EUA.
You can get the vaccine
and be pretty sure
that you're getting something
that's fairly stable.
And if you choose not to do it,
that's fine. But you will pay, then,
if you end up costing us a game.
And if you break protocols,
you're gonna be fined 15 grand.
Yeah, exactly right.
What happens here
that's a little bit different
is that you have players who,
if they are anti-vaccine,
and they decide to make a stink
about something that the NFL does,
everybody's gonna know about it,
and you're gonna have a lot
of people that follow them.
And so I think the union,
the NFL Players Association,
then is in this position where
they don't necessarily want
to challenge their players to talk out
against the NFL and its rules,
because ultimately, that kind of policy
is better for the entirety
of the union's players.
We have turned it over
to Capitalism again
and asked it to solve
our vaccine problem.
Well, Jerry Jones
this week says,
"Hey, look, you can do whatever
you want"
"until it starts to affect
somebody else."
"And in sports,
we talk about we."
"So stop talking about I
and talk about we."
Sean McDermott,
the coach of the Bills,
says, "Look, we're at
a competitive disadvantage."
"We have 80% vaccinations,"
"which is higher than
the national average,"
"but lower than
the NFL's average of 93%."
"The Falcons, by the way,
are at 100%."
"What if guys can't practice?
What if we lose them for games?"
"You're putting us at
a competitive disadvantage."
Which is obviously
an indisputable fact.
However, one of his players,
Cole Beasley,
says, among other things,
the following:
"Everybody is all-in on science.
What about God's will?"
"I'll get vaccinated
and be an advocate for it"
"if Pfizer puts a percentage
of its earnings in my wife's name."
I think Albert Einstein
said it best:
"The difference between genius
and stupidity"
"is that genius has limits."
The fun thing about Cole Beasley
is he says all this stuff on Twitter.
He does not do any of it
in front of a camera.
Every time that we need to
say stuff about Cole Beasely,
we gotta put his stuff on
the inset on the screen.
He's been very wise about not putting
his face and voice on this.
But I think all the people in
power in the country thought,
"Once the vaccine is available,"
"people are gonna
line up to take it."
And people did line up to take it,
and then all of a sudden,
there weren't
people in line anymore.
And that never dawned on anyone
that we would have
this solution to come around
and people wouldn't take it.
And so now the money is trying
to get the money back going.
And so how are we
going to do this?
The institution that runs this is like,
"Okay, we are going to create
negative incentives,"
"or disincentives, that will make you
then want to get this vaccine."
And there's still people looking up.
In the NFL, where your job is tenuous,
and where your money
isn't necessarily that long,
people who are still willing to say,
"Nah, I'll roll the dice on this."
"So yeah, it might mess up
my body forever."
"Yeah, that's fine.
I'll go ahead and do this."
And the people in charge can't
have that for much longer.
And I think that's what
we're seeing.
But that's the calculation
that a lot of players make anyway.
Whether it's concussions,
going out there,
knowing that your knee could
get blown out on a tackle.
I mean, they've already
made that decision.
"I'm in for short term."
That's your career,
not other people's health.
All right, last issue here.
And we have to be brief
even though it's a juicy issue.
Cover story in the most recent
"Sports Illustrated"
all about gambling and
its proliferation in sports.
Jane, you've reported
fairly extensively about this,
including outside the borders
of the United States.
Obviously,
the profit motive is there.
It's a windfall for the leagues.
It's a tax windfall for various
municipalities and states.
What's the downside?
Well, in 2018,
I made a bunch of calls
to some people who work
in the EU as regulators
when it comes to gambling there.
In many countries there,
you can bet on sports, no problem.
And one of the regulators said to me
as this was beginning,
"You in the United States,"
"you know, you have
a really good thing going."
"And when there's a play,
you know, in the fourth quarter"
"or if there's a pop fly and somebody
drops it in the 9th inning,"
"you never really have to worry"
"about whether or not
that effort was genuine."
You know, maybe they were
boneheaded play, whatever,
but you don't necessarily think
that someone's thrown that.
And that could change.
That could change in this
country as a result of this.
And I think we're all
looking at the money.
You know, Bomani's made this
point now a couple of times,
we're run by Capitalism.
Everybody's looking at the money.
But we have a large class of athletes
in this country who are amateurs,
who do not have a financial
stake in the game.
And if someone came to them
and said,
"Hey, you know, I'm gonna
give you ten grand if you do that",
that's ten grand more than
they're making off that game.
Here's what many don't realize.
There's a line on Division 3 volleyball.
You can bet on this cornhole thing
that's on ESPN 27.
- You know, what is that?
- Well, that's exactly right.
We don't think about it,
but in other countries,
they know firsthand
that a lot of times, you know,
these games can be corrupted.
And that's something
we haven't had to worry about,
and I think we possibly could.
We also have to look at, like, reporting
and different rules.
What if you know something
if you cover the Cowboys
and you happen to know
something about an injury?
Rather than reporting it,
what if you sold it to this
group of sharks over here
who are all about to,
you know, place a bet.
You could make
a lot of money like that.
And we're not looking
at any of that.
Where's the accountability
on sports betting?
It's a state-by-state thing.
That makes it ripe for anyone
who wants to take advantage.
I'm not playing moralist here,
for the record.
My dad was an inveterate gambler.
He collected from and paid to
guys named "Blinky"
and "Three Finger".
I'm not kidding.
When I was 12 years old,
if you asked me on a Monday
after Sunday's football games,
"What's the line
on Giants/Eagles?"
I'd give it to you within a point.
I do think that there was
kind of a dark romance
or Runyonesque kind of thing
about what my dad did
as opposed to someone
sitting with their smartphone
in a dorm room.
But if everything
becomes transactional,
if everything is monetized,
maybe we're too far gone
on this anyway,
but isn't some of the charm of sports
gone if that becomes the case?
At this point, we're talking about
billions of dollars, right?
I mean, I see what you're saying.
At the same time,
it's so interesting to me
that Manfred and Goodell
have both talked about
how this is good
for "fan engagement".
Like, that's the language
they're using.
A decade ago, every commissioner
testified before congress,
"It's the end of the world
if we have legalized betting."
I think it's out of the barn,
you already have reporters who
are specializing in betting
even though years ago, when
we started off in the business,
if you placed a bet,
you could be fired.
By the way, in fairness,
that's still the rule.
If you work for one of these
leagues, if you're a player,
or, for example, I do some stuff
for the Major League Baseball Network,
which is owned by the league,
if you share proprietary
information,
or if you're found to be
gambling yourself on baseball,
you can be terminated.
Who are we now, once again, trusting
to enforce the standards
and keep this right?
The same Capitalist structure.
'Cause the person,
or the entity, I think,
that we trust the most to try
to keep all this level
is the house, the casino.
They're the ones most invested
in keeping this level.
Like, once again, we are just hoping
that the market will save us.
Which is crazy.
And I am hoping
that we can move on.
Otherwise, there's gonna be
an insurrection in the control room.
So thanks to you all,
Bomani, Jane, and Jessica.
And now, on to Peyton Manning.
We spoke with him last week
in the aftermath of his
Hall of Fame induction.
He's clearly one of the greatest
quarterbacks of all time.
He's also, of course, part of one
of the great football families.
On top of which,
he's pretty damn funny.
All of that made Peyton's
Hall of Fame enshrinement
and his acceptance speech
a memorable occasion.
In his remarks, he made it clear
he's not done with football yet.
Peyton, obviously
you love the game,
you know its history,
you're concerned about its future.
What role do you see
for yourself?
Well, I don't have a specific role.
I know a couple people
have said they thought
I was campaigning for
the commissioner's position.
That was never on my radar when
I put that speech together.
I think if the NFL was lucky,
Roger Goodell would do it another
20 years, to tell you the truth.
But I've taken very seriously
my role to be an ambassador
for the game
since I've stopped playing.
The game's been under attack,
there's no doubt about it.
And keeping the game safe
I think is priority number one.
Getting the high schools
and the junior programs
to limit the tackling and to limit
the on-the-field contact
to keep players healthy
and keep it safe,
those are all initiatives that
I'd like to continue to be a part of.
Commissionership
is out though, right?
I don't know where that came from,
and it never crossed my mind
in anything that I was saying.
But no, that was not
on my radar by any means.
Players being part of ownership
is a continuing trend.
Jordan with the Hornets,
Jeter with the Marlins.
A-Rod made a run at the Mets,
and now he's part
of the ownership group
with the Timberwolves.
And there are other examples.
Now, I figure you don't
have 3 billion, 4 billion,
even though you've done
pretty well.
- If it is, I can't find it.
- It's not on you.
But being part of a group,
would that interest you?
I haven't said no to anything.
I've kind of said no
to this for this year.
Sure, to be a part of a team
on the competitive side
would be exciting, would be fun.
Like, people ask me all the time,
"Hey, are you gonna buy a team?"
I'm like, "I keep looking for
the 3 billion in my pocket."
"I just don't know where it is."
But, you know, I haven't had
any serious conversations
with anyone that's been close
to buying a team.
But if the situation arose,
and to be a part of it,
yeah, that would certainly
be interesting.
Being an athlete is unique
in that you peak,
and then you're done
while still a young man or woman.
A 30-year-old ball player
is a veteran.
A 30-year-old in almost any other walk
of life is a youngster.
Is a newcomer.
And so you have more
than half of your life,
generally speaking, remaining
after you've played your last down
or thrown your last pitch,
whatever it might be.
And a lot of guys
have difficulty adjusting to that.
"Who am I?
What am I gonna do?"
- Have you thought about that?
- Sure.
There's no doubt about it,
and I've seen it firsthand.
I think the first thing that I admitted
and I came to the realization
that nothing is going
to give you a rush
like running out through
a tunnel in an NFL stadium.
I don't think it exists.
Skydiving, flying a plane,
hang gliding, you name it,
I just don't think it's there.
And so because I've admitted
that it's not there,
I'm not chasing that same rush
and adrenaline.
And I got to do it for a long time.
I loved everything about it.
And so you just sort of find,
I don't know, use a cheesy
football analogy,
completions to kind of matriculate
down the field.
As Hank Stram would say.
And I've kind of taken it
one year at a time like I said.
Priority number one for me
is being there for my family,
our children's flag football
games that I'm coaching,
my daughter's softball games.
My dad said no to a lot of things
that would have taken him away
from our Little League
baseball games
and high school football games.
My dad was there every
Friday night in the stands.
He never coached me,
but he was there.
I always knew he was there,
and that was important to me.
And so I've tried to follow
that model.
At the same time, staying busy,
staying stimulated.
I like my kids seeing me
going to work,
whatever it is that I'm doing.
I don't really have
a one-word job description.
But that's important
to create some free time
to still do some of those
things I never had a chance to do
in 25 years.
People may not realize
just how serious your neck injury was
and all the nerve damage
and what it took
A, surgically to put you
back together,
and then B, all the rehab.
Was it more serious
than people realize?
Yeah. It's one of those things that
you don't wanna give live updates
as to
"this is how weak my arm is",
"these are the weights
that I'm lifting now".
I was very sensitive
to kind of who could see me.
I really only threw the football
during that time, Bob,
with about three people.
With my wife,
I let her see me throw,
Eli, and my dad.
And that was it, 'cause I didn't want
anybody else to kind of see me
and to see the reaction
on their faces.
It was definitely the greatest
professional challenge
that I ever had to go through.
I had great support
during that time,
but it's something about
being flexible, being adaptive.
Still maybe not make these
65 yard throws,
but be really accurate
on these mid-level throws.
In a weird way, I'm almost
kind of glad I went through it.
I had pretty good health
prior to that.
I didn't have a lot
of challenges that way,
and I feel like I kind of persevered
and sort of passed that test.
When you first came back
with the Broncos,
you're throwing 50 touchdown
passes in a season.
You're putting up huge numbers.
At the end, you were like a guy
who had a 100 mile-an-hour fastball,
and now he's throwing
junk balls.
- But you still won the Super Bowl.
- There's different ways to win it.
And every time I see Von Miller
and DeMarcus Ware,
I thank them
and I jump on their backs
because they carried me
that season.
I said, "I want you
to keep carrying me."
That's football, right?
A golfer couldn't do that, right?
Because it's an individual sport.
I had to have teammates
help me.
That's pretty much why
I knew it was time.
I just couldn't do the things
that I used to do
and felt like it was
the right time to step away,
especially coming off
a championship season
with the Broncos.
When you got that closure,
even though had you not had
a very serious injury,
you could have continued
to play longer,
was it out of your system
because you got that closure?
Yeah. I just felt like
I did everything that I wanted to do.
I got to experience all of it.
You know, Super Bowl wins,
Super Bowl losses,
rookie year with 28 interceptions,
to be a part of
two world championships
on two different organizations.
And then I felt like there's
something about getting out
when you do have your health,
as opposed to waiting till the health
is the reason that you gotta go.
And I didn't want to be
carried off the field.
I wanted to walk off the field.
And it just felt like the right time.
I always thought I had
pretty good timing, right?
Working on those timing routes.
And it just felt like the right time.
And zero regrets.
I had people say, "Hey, you're
not gonna want to go to games"
"right away,
you're gonna get antsy."
None of that.
I love going to games.
Love, you know,
cheering on players
and being a part of the game.
And so it was a fun journey.
Talk about a football family.
Your dad was a terrific player,
but not so terrific NFL team.
He presents you.
That was an emotional moment.
You talk about your mom
in the speech,
how she could read a Cover-2 defense
as well as most NFL quarterbacks.
Your brother is there, he might
be a Hall-of-Famer someday.
And your nephew, Arch,
Cooper's son,
might very well play in
the NFL someday himself, yes?
Yeah, I'm really proud
of my nephew.
I'm proud of Cooper
for how he's handled it.
He's really made it
an enjoyable experience.
I feel for these young
high school players now.
The recruiting starts so much earlier
than when I was getting recruited.
Since he was a freshmen,
they've been asking him,
"Hey, where are you going?"
Plus, he's at the same school.
He's at Isidore Newman
in New Orleans.
I go back to those games. My parents
are sitting in the same stands
they sat in when they watched
me and Eli play.
And I want him to have
a fun high school experience.
I worry about these kids
that don't enjoy the process
because, I mean, heck, we got kids
leaving high school early now
to go to college.
But I'm proud of him.
Eli and I get a little mad at my dad,
'cause I feel like my dad skipped
a generation with his speed.
He gave it all to his grandson.
He skipped me and Eli.
Like, "Dad, I'd like to have
a little speed."
Yeah, your Dad was a scrambler.
Of course, he had to be,
'cause the offensive line
was so bad.
So I have to admit, you know,
for Cooper,
who, as you know, Bob,
was gonna have a really
good career at Ole Miss
as a SEC wide receiver.
Had a neck injury,
never got to play.
Handled it with incredible grace,
a positive attitude,
never complained,
was Eli and I's biggest supporters.
Never said, "This isn't fair."
For him to have this full circle,
to have his son being recruited,
and it's really a cool thing to see.
Let's talk about Tom Brady.
People are fascinated by this.
They see him come to Canton,
they see you playing
in the match, golf situation.
They find out later,
Wilt and Russell actually
were good friends,
dined at each other's homes,
stayed at each other's homes
while they were active players.
Magic and Larry Bird, the same.
On the other hand, Ali and Frazier
were trying
to beat each other's brains out.
So how did that relationship go?
How is it different now
than ten years ago?
I think there was always
just great respect
on the perception of things.
I could tell Tom Brady was a guy that
I said, "He's got to watch
a lot of film."
"I can tell he spends time
with his receivers"
"working on timing
after practice."
I didn't really know that,
I just assumed that.
And then you play in a Pro Bowl
together, right?
And you spend time
in Hawaii together.
You play in a charity
golf tournament together.
You spend time with him.
You have dinner together,
and you realize
that he is doing those things.
And next thing you know,
we're kind of talking about ideas
and how we watch film.
Not giving away all the secrets,
but, trying to improve
each other's craft.
And so it's been a special friendship.
And I think it's important to
have respect for the opponent.
You want to beat him,
you want to do the best
you can for your team,
but, you know, respect the guys
you're playing against.
That's an important part of it.
Bill Belichick recently said
no doubt in his mind,
not even close,
the best quarterback he
ever had to compete against,
and the hardest guy
to prepare for was you.
That's a tremendous compliment.
And I'm very honored
and humbled by that comment.
And Coach Belichick
came to Canton
to see Jimmy Johnson,
Bill Cowher,
and he said to say hello to me.
He was there at
the Saturday night ceremony.
Harry Carson came
and grabbed me and said,
"Bill Belichick wants
to say hello to you."
I walked back, had a great
conversation with him.
He shared that with me.
I was with Marvin Harrison.
He said, "Thank God
both of you guys are retired."
"I got tired of playing
against you guys."
So look, he's the greatest coach
of all time in my opinion.
And for him to say something
like that really means a lot.
Here's something from your
Hall of Fame speech
that completely captures
your love of the game.
And everybody, including all the former
Hall of Fame players loved it.
Let's take a look at this.
The other night I had a dream
that I was in one of those scrimmages.
We were on the 50 yard line
with only three seconds
left in the game.
Coach Cowher
called a running play.
I said, "Coach,
I'm gonna have to audible."
I called a pass play.
my bust faked a handoff
to Barry Sanders.
I threw a 20-yard break-in
route to Michael Irvin
right as Deacon Jones and Ray
Nitschke hit me at the same time.
Irving, as he was getting
tackled by Ronnie Lott,
then lateraled to Steve Largent,
who was in a footrace
down the sideline
with Darrell Green
and Lem Barney.
The savvy Largent,
knowing he couldn't win
a footrace with Darrell Green,
then lateraled back
to Lance Alworth,
who dove into the end zone
for the game-winning score.
- Sums it up.
- Yeah, I know. That was
I kind of get emotional
thinking about it.
Just the history of it
A lot of those guys
aren't with us anymore.
They've moved on.
You know, Deacon Jones,
I think the Hall of Fame
is where he really held court.
There's a Ray Nitschke
luncheon now,
where Ray used to kind of
tell these young guys,
to, "Hey, be good ambassadors
for the game."
"Come back, right?
Be a good servant."
So yeah, kind of capturing all that in.
Lance Alworth called your dad, right?
Lance Alworth was watching.
He and my dad are somewhat
of the same vintage,
and told my dad he appreciated
the shout-out.
I don't think Lance Alworth's
been called out
at a Hall of Fame ceremony
in years past.
And so, you know, I mean, look,
I love the players
that have just retired,
I love Jerry Rice, Chris Carter,
but a little bit of a throwback
to the players of yesteryear,
because they were important, Bob.
They didn't make nearly as much money
as the players make today,
but they were integral in the
success of the NFL today,
so it was a little shout-out to them.
When you look back
over an epic career,
if you had one or two moments
to put in a time capsule
that just kind of embodied
everything that you care about,
what would they be?
I gotta tell you, I really think one
of them was last Sunday night
after the Hall of Fame
ceremony.
The Colts hosted kind
of an open party for me
where I could invite Colts,
Broncos, you name it.
But at one point,
I was looking around the room,
I was looking at
my high school teammates,
college teammates,
Colts teammates,
Broncos teammates,
35 years of football
kind of captured in one room.
I said, "Well, if I could just
capture this moment"
Because we don't get to see each other
very much anymore.
Everybody's got different
things going on, families.
And so I think that was just
kind of a reminder
of the greatest takeaway for me
in my football experience
were the relationships.
Were the people, teammates,
the equipment manager,
as you know, is behind the scenes
the heart and soul
of a baseball team,
a football team.
The video director who I made
him spend countless hours
breaking down video
to get me to watch.
And so I think about
all those people,
and luckily, even though
I don't play anymore,
I still get to have
those friendships.
And so that was better
than a throw or a game for me,
was the friendships that I made
in this long football journey.
Last thing. A lot of athletes have
hosted "Saturday Night Live".
Many of them have been good.
You, in my humble opinion,
far and away the best.
What was the best thing
about that experience?
The cast members,
the rehearsals,
how much of it did you
ad lib or suggest?
Going behind the ropes in another field
is fascinating to me,
because you don't get
to do that in football, Bob.
You don't get to bring
a 12th guy in the huddle.
You can't get in there, right?
But to go behind the ropes
of "Saturday Night Live"
and to see how Amy Poehler,
Bill Hader, Jason Sudeikis,
all big stars now, were kind of
working on their craft.
They're writing all these ideas,
trying to make them real popular,
and go on to the next deal.
So to witness that
was pretty special.
The one people talk to me about
the most, Bob,
was this little skit we did
for the United Way
where I was pegging these kids
in the head.
Okay, I'm sorry.
Do you want to lose?
I throw, you catch.
It's not that hard, okay?
All right, get the fuck
out of here.
You know, that was in 2007, right?
A friend of mine sent me an email,
said, "Hey, this guy Jack was
the guy you pegged in the head"
"on the way to the portalet,
he's getting married now,"
"and would you do
a shout-out video to him?"
And so I said,
"Absolutely I will."
I said, "Jack,
Peyton Manning here."
"Best wishes to you and your bride.
I hope for eternal happiness."
"You know, I threw a few
touchdowns, I had a few wins,"
"but for the most part, when people
come up to me on the street,"
"they recognize me
for one reason,"
"for pegging you
in the back of the head."
"Thank you for blessing me
with that opportunity"
"to hit you in the face.
Best of luck. Best wishes."
So, that was an all-timer.
And that's the one people still
talk to me about the most.
And what's not to like
about Peyton Manning?
In addition to everything else,
Peyton and brother Eli
will provide an alternative Monday
night broadcast on ESPN 2.
Just a pair of brothers,
each with a pair
of Super Bowl titles,
talking about the game as
they watch it along with you.
And finally, consider this,
the week after next
in Cooperstown,
baseball's COVID-delayed
Hall of Fame induction ceremony
will take place for Derek Jeter,
Ted Simmons, and Larry Walker.
Also to be honored,
posthumously, Marvin Miller,
the long-time head
of the Players Association.
Under Miller's intelligent
and principled direction
in the '60s and '70s,
the players, until then powerless
over the direction of their own
careers, gained free agency,
one of the most
significant developments
in baseball history,
which also had a ripple effect
as other leagues eventually
followed suit.
Some in baseball
never forgave Miller
for how he beat the owners at
every turn in negotiations,
not that he was ever
especially charitable
in his own assessments
of the Lords of the Game either.
And while Miller could, at times,
be too unyielding and doctrinaire,
in the big picture, and in his time,
he was right.
And his influence was monumental.
There's no denying he's one
of the most significant figures
in the history of the game.
Despite that, Miller always
believed he'd never join
the various executives
enshrined in the Hall
as long as he was alive,
and as long as baseball officials
would have to listen
to his acceptance speech.
In fact, Miller's prediction came true.
He died in 2012 at the age of 95,
and only now, nine years later,
will his place in baseball history
finally be recognized.
But not properly,
since he won't be there
both to accept his honor
and speak his piece.
And that brings us to the player
most closely associated with Miller,
the late Curt Flood.
The All-Star Cardinal
outfielder of the '60s
who hit .293 lifetime,
won seven Gold Gloves
and was an important part
of three Cardinal pennant winners.
Flood was a distinctive player
and an even more distinctive
individual,
well-read and with a variety
of interests which included
his active participation in
the '60s civil rights movement.
And when, after the 1969 season,
the Cardinals traded him
to the Phillies,
Flood decided he wouldn't go.
He had his reasons.
It's been a master and slave
relationship.
"As long as you do what I say do,
you're fine."
Flood's cause was taken up
by Marvin Miller
and the Players Association,
and eventually, went all
the way to the Supreme Court,
where it lost on a narrow vote.
Still, a statement had been made,
an important one on the long
path to players' rights,
even if Flood himself would never reap
the tangible benefits.
He'd play only 13 more games
in the Majors.
By that point, a broken man,
both emotionally and financially.
Baseball and the museum
where its history resides,
can do better by Curt Flood.
This is not an argument for
his enshrinement as a player.
He was an excellent player,
though not quite
Hall of Fame great.
But there exists a perfect answer.
Years ago,
a special committee enshrined
17 previously overlooked
players and contributors
from the Negro Leagues.
And somehow,
they bypassed Buck O'Neil.
Their focus was too narrow.
They looked at statistics alone.
Buck O'Neil's significance
and contribution to the game
was so much greater
than mere numbers.
Storyteller supreme,
contemporary of Satchell Paige
and Josh Gibson,
treasure trove of baseball
and Negro League history,
a national treasure who was
the most memorable presence
in Ken Burns'
baseball documentary.
How could they not see all that?
Well, Buck was too gracious
to say so,
but the snub hurt him
and embarrassed the Hall,
which quickly found a way
to remedy the injustice,
a statue in Cooperstown
and a lifetime achievement
award named for O'Neil
to be given only occasionally
and only to those
whose overall contributions
to the game merit it.
Buck himself
was the first recipient.
Rachel Robinson is among
the select few
who have received it since.
Curt Flood absolutely fits the profile
of a baseball figure
worthy of the O'Neil award.
And now is the time.
No need for the Hall to be
constrained by technicalities
or myopic devotion to process.
There are 12 days between now
and induction day.
Just do it by acclimation.
When baseball gets it right,
it can be both moving
and meaningful.
The All-Century Team,
baseball's role
in the aftermath of 9/11,
the Field of Dreams game.
But sometimes,
baseball gets it wrong.
They got it wrong for
a long time with Marvin Miller.
Here's a chance to at least,
in part, make it right.
Miller and Flood are gone.
But on September 8th
in Cooperstown,
they can be symbolically reunited,
honored together for their enduring
place in baseball history.
It would be a perfectly
fitting gesture
and the kind of grace note
Buck O'Neil himself
would approve and applaud.
We're back on the record
next month. See you then.